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Hello Everybody,I have a balanced Space Marine force that has gone through many reincarnations, from drop pod list, mechanized, foot sloggers, and static gun line. But one thing has always been constant and that's been my tactical squads.I've always believed that the tactical squads should be the back bone of any Space Marine force. And so now I take three full squads in a 1750pt -1500pt game.So heres the point: I can't seem to get any bang for my buck out of my Tactical Squads. I've tried using them as a stationary line. I've tried moving the entire game. And then I've tried abit of both, and every time I can't seem to get them to kill anything. It's always my other units who kill enemy models.Can you help me in figuring out what I could possibly be doing wrong?-I play against a necron force with two monoliths, 24 warriors, Lord and C'tan.
-A Balanced Imperial Guard army, with 80+ footsloggers and tank support.
-and a Tyrinid army that can field basically any unit available to them.My squads typically look something like this
1 plasma/metla (depends on the squads job, but I tend to lean toward melta)
Missile Launcher (because it's free)
rhino (should I take this?)
Sgt. with Powerfist (helps with MC and C'tan who always hit my line)Again any advice is appreciated, I'm mainly looking for maneuvering tactics and deployment tactics.Thanks,Nate
And so I asked myself: Self what exactly are you doing?
As a Necron player, I'll throw in here on that Necron list.
Your opponent is insane. Two Monoliths, a Lord, and a C'Tan? 24 warriors means he's got two squads of 12, one of 10 and one of 14, or any other combination of two squads. That stuff (assuming Res Orb and no other gear) adds up to 1402 points... assuming 1500 points, he's got maybe 100 more points to work with....2 Wraiths? 60 more points of Wargear for the Lord (Veil?). Couple scarab bases? Nothing serious here, in any case. His Phase Out number is 5, and he's got no real shooting; just reliance on super-tough tanks and super-freaky-strong C'Tan. The solution here is fairly simple.
All you have to do is get the Necron player to Phase Out. The absolute best weapon you have to do that is Sweeping Advance - even the Res Orb will not allow WBB against that. Even your basic Tactical marine is better in close combat than the standard warrior; Stick 10 in a Rhino and drive it up. Take either the PFist or at least a power sword on the Sergeant, deploy them after you can move and charge, annihilate the squad, and prepare to have that squad eaten by the C'Tan. Obviously, you'll need 2-3 squads deployed this way to get this job done. Rhinos will generally also make you immune to scarabs if he takes those. (You could by DFields for them, but it's kinda pricey and not anywhere near as effective in 5th...)
As long as they're in the transports, they can't be shot at, the C'Tan can't charge them directly, and the Monolith's not really that big of a threat to them. He's got no long range fire of any kind in that list (Nightbringer or Monolith's Particle Whip would be the longest, at 24"), so you should be able to jump on them. Plus, Marines are actually among the best unit to hold up the C'tan in combat for awhile - you're garaunteed to lose combat, but if you do, you'll just take No Retreat wounds instead of being swept. It'll either lock them down for an extra turn or two, or, if it's the Deceiver, he'll just back off and that squad is free to facepunch some more warriors.
Short answer here: Ignore the 'lith and the C'tan. 'Liths are hard for anything in a Marine list to kill except for a tri-las Predator, and even then, it's iffy. The C'tan borderlines on impossible unless you have this very real affinity for sniper scout squads. Plus, both of those units are genuinely slow; you can avoid them with any kind of real transport. You're far better served hitting the Warriors in CC and getting them off the table in a Sweeping Advance.
Yeah i agree, just ignore the monoliths. And for and extra 5 points id take plasma cannons against those warriors. Also make sure you consintrate your fire power onto one unit at a time. That way you can wipe the squad and no WWB rule. I once took a dev squad with 3 plasma cannon dev squad, and a cannon and the dread and every tact squad. I wouldl consider breaking the squads into combat squads. So you heavies can fire every turn, while the cc half advances.
Necrons are a push over once you beat them once.
so I should take rhinos then?
My problems for:
Necrons are: Any vehicle I get inside his 24" "bubble" gets blown to pieces. Not only does he have two particle whips and the nightbringer death beam thingy (not sure what it's called but it's basically a short ranged lascannon) but all his warriors have that gauss ability, so any six's and I'm in big trouble. He keeps his formation really tight. If only Space Marines had Leman Russes lol
Tyranids: I can't decide what to do with my tactical squads. His people can move 24" a turn if he's lucky. (Normal move+ 6" run w/ run+ leaping). So if I stay still he just around me and bypasses my killzone. If I move I run/drive around the whole game trying to get a good position then I get maybe one round of shooting before my squad is annihilated. Not to mention those stupid barbed stranglers.
Imperial Guard: I don't have to much problem with these guys. Basically stay moving and don't get shot,lol
We don't play very many objective games, most of our games are just little pick-up games.
Again I appreciate any advice, but I'm looking more for how to use a squad, not so much on how to build a squad.
And so I asked myself: Self what exactly are you doing?
Helk even a heavy bolter fire, will bring down a necron squad. No WBB rule if the whole squad is down.
I'm having the same problem of making my tacticals useful. They just sort of act as a distraction/speed bump well my other units try and do the damage. If I get close enough to do serious damage shooting I'm going to get charged next turn. And i couldn't even win combat against Tau, so what's a poor marine to do?
Necron Warriors cannot destroy Rhinos, unless they manage to damage it 3 times. If he's using the Particle Whip, be thankful the Mono isn't teleporting units. Nightbringer is a joke, snipe him. Once you kill off 16 or so Warriors his army phases out and you win.
Tyranids can't do squat to vehicles, so stay inside and torch them.
IG go down hard to bolters and flamers.
Tacticals are really just average units, not great, just cheap and scoring. I keep them cheap, missile, flamer, powerfist and Rhino. They support the army and hold objectives, while still providing plentiful anti-infantry and light vehicles firepower and some punch in combat.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
Squad weaponry looks fine to me, suited to all sorts of enemies. Rhinos are cheap and add versatility, either as a transport or a moving wall.
If your other units are doing the killing then maybe this could be the aim for your tactical squads? Act as the bait to lure your enemies. Or they can be the steady base which your specialist units can support. Use terrain to make them more secure against an assault.
There's no 1 way to use them. You need to adjust depending on your enemy. Less moving, more shooting is better against Tyranids (unless you are moving into rapid fire range). Whereas a mobile approach is better suited to fighting Imperial Guard.
I suggest some games involving objectives. Then you can get the benefit of combat squads.
Hope that gives you some ideas!
"But courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity..."
Like Templar said, your weapon options look solid and these are the exact tactical squads i use in every game. I would use the tactical squad in a very supporting roles in the type of games you said. Probably staying still(maybe taking a couple heavy bolters to down all the troops you fight) and shooting, while you lay in wait for the enemy to get close and send your whole force at him at once. Im very interested in seeing the list you use in these games, could we see it? That could give some insite as to how your tactical squads should act. Certain squads are not what win games. More often than not its the entire army acting as one that will win the game.
So your tactical squads may provide simple cover fire for the rest of the armies advance(assault marines, bikes, drop pods landing). They could be used to move forward in their rhinos and creating a wall around an objective while blasting anything that gets near. Maybe they are your main assault force, moving in whith cover from tanks(prdators, Whirlwinds, the occasional thunderfire cannon).
There are many ways your tactical squad could be used, and tons of ways i could explain to use them. But to tailor more toward your needs, we need to know what the rest of your army contains. What is it that does the most killing for you in your army?
Tactical Squads are the backbone of my marine army, and I never go to battle without at least 2, and more often than not 3.
Use the Rhinos to get within 12", shoot the plasma/melta and a bolter out the top hatch to get a wound or 2 off the Warriors.
When the rhino is destroyed the men pop out, take a few wounds if they are focused on. If the Rhino is not destroyed, simply disembark before it moves so you are in charge range.
In your turn, charge the warriors after some bolt pistol/melta shots. Make sure not to shoot so much they are out of charge range!
Power fist or sword will kill a few warriors, your marines may pull down some more. The warriors will lose and fall back. If you catch them, they are destroyed! If you have 3 tactical squads, all out of charge range of the C'tan, and they all charge at once, you could wipe out all the Crons in a single massed assault. Use and other combat units you might have to add punch to the charge, or to distract other necron targets.
You will win by phase out
Against Nids, stay in your Rhinos as long as possible, shoot the Tyranids with flamers, bolters, etc from top hatch. When the units are starting to get small, leap out and rapid fire to remove them. Just keep an eye out for the Big Ones. Several missiles should take care of them, but remember not to ignore the faster small ones and waste your firepower on the big ones who cannot catch you.
Against Guard. Bolters + close combat will take out everything in the army. Use rhinos to get close fast.
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff