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Just how good is a troop based deathwing? Im talking nothing but terminators any of you vets got any feed back thanks.
I havent personally ever used deathwing as an army list, but i have thought about it, my friend that i play against fairly often uses a deathwing army list (mainly i think so he doesnt have as many models to carry) but he normally in a 1500 pts game (this isnt exact) around 4 terminator squads, with two being storm bolters and 2 being a mix of TH/SS and LC's all squads have 1 assault cannon in them, also belial (kind of needed) also he takes a chaplain with a jump pack and lightning claws, a nasty combo if you ask me, and there allways a hard army to beat, the latest series of games leave me in the lead with 2 wins to his 1, and i can tell you that those wins were grabbed onto by the skin of my teeth and my vanilla marines paid cash as it were. ive allwasy found them a nice challenging army to face and allways a pleasure to loose against. besides nothing beats 20-40 terminators striding across the field of battle strait at you.
As a deathwing player myself (and having over 53 terminators to choose from), I hope I can offer a little bit of insight.
Some may disagree with me, but I find Deathwing to be a useful build.
The days of nothing but terminators have been somewhat lessened by the reduction in assault cannon spam, but they can work if you know what you are doing.
Deathwing excel at range. 18-24 inches is where they perform best (in my opinion). Though they are capable in assault, they will do better pumping hot lead into your opponent.
The first turn deep strike should not be underestimated, though you have to be judicious about placement. You need to have a clear fire lane to your target, but not so that they have unobstructed fire to you. This is an art form, and it suits them much better than simply foot-slogging across the board.
I rarely field assault terminators unless they will be in a land raider. Occasionally I mix them up when deep striking, but only when it forces the opponents to choose between two evils. A lone assault squad deep-striking will rarely close with the enemy, let alone earn their points back. But if you can get them behind cover, they can be a worthwile choice. But in my opinion (again, humble it may be) assault terminators usually don't mesh well in an all deathwing force, unless you are going to be transport heavy.
Heavy Weapons in a deathwing squad is a point of some contention, and each seem to have valid points
Assault Cannon- It has rending, no one disputes the utility of this, but I find it difficult to plan a force around a random happenstance. People will mathhammer about the statistical probablitites of rending until they are blue in the face. I have gone an entire game with not one rending shot. So probablities are just that probable. Now, removing that from the equation, we have a weapon with a decent strenght, a terrific rate of fire, a respectable AP, and a range comparable with that of the storm bolter. This makes it a very utilitarian weapon, and even without rending, it would be a popular choice.
Cyclone Missile Launcher- You don't give up your storm bolter, so you'll have at least ten bolter rounds heading towards your opponent, plus the heavy suprise of a missile. This is in my opinion, the only 'heavy' weapon in a deathwing force. The high strength and good AP make it a decent choice, but its range is a blessing and a curse. You can reach out and touch someone, but your storm bolters are useless. Up close and personal with frags can do wonders against lightly armored opponents, and using the Krak missiles against targets that you won't be able to catch is a viable alternative.
Heavy Flamer- When this works, it works really really well. I've toasted Dire Avengers, Genestealers, Storm Troopers and other 'elite' troops in opponent armies. Turning them into so many smouldering cinders. However, if you misjudge placement, or have to try to catch someone who may be running, it is not so hot. Plus if/when you are out of flamer range you have a guy who isn't contributing anything. This works best on a deep striking unit that will be in a shock trooper role. Normally, I'm not a fan of mixing shooting and assault, but a squad of assault terminators with a heavy flamer is not absolute failure. Anything you are close enough to torch is likely to be close enough to assault. Though you will likely be left open in your opponent's shooting phase (Either because your flamer killed the only bodies in assault range, or your assault termies finished off the opponent.)
I do recommend a Deathwing army, when you win, you win big. When you lose, you lose big. But whatever you do, you look good doing it.
+ Some points I like to remind myself of every game +
* Yes, you have a 2+ save, but every die has a "1" on it. Reduce the amount of incoming fire and you won't have to roll as many dice.
* Yes, you have a 2+ save, but every amy has access to power weapons, melta weapons, and/or plasma weapons (or their equivalents), and a 5+ is not nearly as burly as a 2+
* You can move & shoot, and shoot & assault. This does not mean you have to. Setting up a gunline, falling fire, and relentless advances are all viable tactics, depending on your enemy.
Now, as far as the makeup of my forces go, I tend to divide my squads into specific purposes:
For long range 'Reach out and touch someone' I go with cyclone missile launchers. These tend to be the folks I place on the board initially. They can march across the field and deliver long-range firepower against key hardened targets
For utility fire suppression, I usually use an assault cannon. This provides a decent amount of anti infantry support, and works adequately against light vehicles.
Assault Terminators I usually equip with lightning claws. And they are always in Land Raiders or Drop Pods(deep strike). Gets them into the fray quickly. And hopefully limits the casualties they take (I always take them in pairs if they come in via drop pod/deep strike...forces my opponent to evaluate the threat level and proximity.)
In a deathwing army, the only vehicles you should field are Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. And, since people (read: I) have brought up Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders, I think I will offer my opinions on them as well.
The new codex has nearly priced venerable out of feasibility. I still bring one every so often, so it is not completely void of use. this is more of a flavor issue, but some still swear by them.
Some of the weapon options I consider useful:
Plasma Cannon: Don't have to worry about overheat since it is on a vehicle chassis. Decent strength, awesome AP, and a fair range. Great for heavily armored troops and medium vehicles.
Assault Cannon: Same benefits and drawbacks of the assault cannon on the terminator squads, I won't reiterate my opinions here.
Twin-Linked Lascannons: Great range, and in a pure Deathwing army, some of the best anti-tank available.
Missile Launcher: Comparable range to the Lascannons, but slightly more flexible. Can take out most any vehicle, and devastating to lightly armored infantry. (Blast templates rumored in 5th ed make this better).
Autocannons: I like these and since I normally use Imperial Armor, I can't remember if they are 'officially' legal in the DA codex off the top of my head. Good range, decent rate of fire, and a respectable AP. These are particularly viable in a 'Mortis Pattern' configuration (see below).
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon: I consider this to be default. I almost always give them heavy flamers, because if they have CCW, they will be in the front lines, or in drop pods. So they will almost always be close enough to use them.
When outfitting the Dreadnoughts, you have to keep in mind what they will be doing, and what their objective is. Some of my favorite combinations are:
Plasma Cannon/Dreadnought CCW w/ Heavy Flamer: The plasma cannon targets heavy infantry. and can usually tie up a unit in combat for a few rounds.
Assault Cannon Dreadnought CCW w/ Heavy Flamer: This is a shock dreadnought. Usually tasked with scouring opponents out of bunkers
Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher: A mobile firebase that excels at taking out Medium vehicles and MEQs. Woe betide any open-topped vehicles that stray into its line of fire. Keep this guy behind cover and unleash hell.
'Mortis Pattern' with 2 Twin-Linked Autocannonns: I know you need Imperial Armor for this variant, but it is one of my favorites. Great Range, good strength, respectable rate of fire, and twin-linked nearly guaranteeing hits. It does a great job at busting light vehicles, and any infantry unit foolish enough to cross open ground. (Even though MEQ's will get a save, you will be inflicting enough wounds to make sure they notice)
Drop pods are very useful for the close range support dreadnoughts. but getting the longer range dreads on the flanks is a viable choice, and can be a surprise to your opponents who are not expecting it.
I'll come back to my opinions on Land Raiders later...if anyone is interested.
* "I'm Significant!" -screamed the dust speck
* "Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background."
I think Forsaken said it all.
You obviously have to take Belial, but i'd definately take a terminator Interrogator Chaplain or terminator Librarian as your second HQ too. I go with the Librarian, but if you take the Chaplain and put him in an assault unit with lightning claws then they can re roll to hit and wound and ignore armour. if you take the librarian it doesn't matter where you put him, he'd do great anywhere.
WOW thanks alot that answered all my questions.
I will definatley getting a deathwing army.
And thanks to all the other posts great advice .
Infantry DW is definitely viable, probably the best build we've got.
Keep them shooty and only engage in combat if you know you can win. I like cyclones for the range and extra storm bolter. Take plenty of those units, hammering the enemy as they come in and moving away to avoid assault as long as possible.
You will have problems with heavier vehicles, so TLLC Dreads never hurt (or MM in Drop Pods).
Shoot, scoot, shoot and don't forget your Apothecary.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
I don't know about you guys, but I would love to see a "Deathwing" army for the Daemonhunters consisting of Grey Knight Terminators. Sigh...
So what everyone said before me is good. All I have to add really is that in higher points games, my Land Raiders have and will continue to be invaluable. Course running 2 and an LRC in a 2000 point army is lovely.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
I know that in the first Apoc book there is a landraider formation. Dunno about reload.