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This question, as far as I know, would only ever apply to space wolves and no other army (that i know of, at least). The circumstances are so specific to the space wolves unit organization, 5th edition rules, and a specific situation that it really could easily have been an oversight by GW. As such, I'd not be surprised if nobody knows anything more than guesses. I'll ask the question anyways...
Space Wolves don't have sergeants or integrated squad leaders. Instead, they have the wolf guard that act as sergeants.
In the FOC, all Wolf Guard in your army count as a single elites choice regardless of how many you include.
At the start of the battle, one Wolf Guard may be attached to each squad, becoming the squad leader, or the equivalent of a sergeant in any other space marine army.
Wolf Guard Leaders are NOT independent characters, or even characters with retinues. They are in every way PART OF the squad. They may not leave the unit, get singled out in CC, and are the same kill point...
When the rest of the squad is killed and the wolf guard survives, the wolf guard does NOT become an IC, as like mentioned before they were not "attached" as an IC, or deployed as a character with a retinue, but as a member of the squad. Just like a sergeant. On to the money question:
In this situation (the wolf guard surviving the rest of the squad), does the wolf guard count as scoring? (obviously, given that the wolf guard was assigned to a Grey Hunter of Blood Claw squad)
This problem would never have come up until 5th edition, where which only troops count as scoring, and can score to the last man. And it only arises due to the space wolf army organization (wolf guard coming from the elites section), and in a specific situation. (The wolf guard surviving the rest of the squad, holding an objective, and the objective not being contested by the enemy. The question would not matter if it was contested, because whether or not the wolf guard is scoring, the objective is contested. If not contested, however, it then makes a difference as to whether that player controls that objective)
This question never came up in a game, but I was just curious.
New codex supposedly coming out this year, so it'll probably get cleared up anyways
Last edited by Takeda; February 16th, 2009 at 04:29.
That is a good question.
I would let him score as he led a squad of troops, and the unit that sticks together would count as Elites.
My guess is that the new codex will have Wolf Guard as an upgrade for the unit, like Sergent, or will be mandatory choice like recent SM codeci. Either way, he will no longer be attached before the game as now
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
I would reccomend anyone coming across this dilemma to allocate their wounds to the wold guard before the last man in their squad, if they want a scoring unit.
---------- Post added at 10:57 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------
Characters, even if not independant or able to leave squads are a seperate kill point each
(Case example with identical game mechanic: Imperial Guard Advisors)
Would I let my opponent score with them ? If this cropped up in a friendly game, I would. I'd tell my opponent that's fine, as it's not clear in the slightest, but I won't let them next time.
Would i let my normal SW opponents? Heck no. They're a pair of grizzled, vicious bearded gits who've been playing since Jesus was a boy and have filthy, filthy army lists and tactics. (One even has a all "classic" space wolf army, with the 1980's land raiders and rhino's, and "furario" marauder/citadel dreadnaughts. I don't mind losing to that, I can sit there reminiscing as the scouts appear behind me and rip up my men, the 20 man double power fisting squad multi-charges my units, or the unkillable bikes round up the survivors in a sort-of 40k rodeo.)
Last edited by stayscrunchyinmilk; February 16th, 2009 at 11:11.
^I agree with your interpretation but it's actually been FAQ'd so Wolf Guard become apart of the same force organisation slot as the unit they join. So they are scoring when they join a pack of Grey Hunters or Blood Claws and are never a separate kill point.
Checked that FAQ again. guess it was there the whole time.
Although strictly speaking it says they are same same FOC when deploying and for reserves, and doesn't specifically say anything about scoring, I think this entry in the FAQ made the notion that they are scoring far more plausible than for them not to be scoring. So for all intents and purposes, for now they are scoring unless stronger evidence says otherwise.
Cool. I'm thinking of playing space wolves as I feel they're one of the best CC marine chapters with their cheap power fists/weapons & terminator armors, true grit & counter-attack. The only thing now is that they don't get free drop pods anymore like they used to pre-5th.
Seriously, they're almost indestructible once you get familiar with them. I've sorted my tactics out finally with them and I haven't lost in 10 battles. And with the new rules for Counter-Attack, as long as they pass the LD test, they get +1 attack no matter whether your opponent charges you or you charge them. Well worth getting.Cool. I'm thinking of playing space wolves as I feel they're one of the best CC marine chapters with their cheap power fists/weapons & terminator armors, true grit & counter-attack. The only thing now is that they don't get free drop pods anymore like they used to pre-5th.