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Thread: Eternal Warrior

  1. #1
    Festo Diata TwoHats's Avatar
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    Eternal Warrior

    I played a game yesterday versus a Chaos Daemons army, wherein my Grand Master was in a position to quickly dispatch the Keeper of Secrets with his Force Weapon. I outlined very slowly the text of the Nemesis Force Weapon in my Daemonhunter codex, emphasizing the words "..is slain outright, regardless of the number of Wounds" etc. No mention of the words Instant Death anywhere in the entry.

    My opponent would have none of it, though. He insisted that his Eternal Warrior status voided any such "Instant Death".

    As far as I was aware, the Daemonhunter Force Weapon does not inflict "Instant Death", but rather results in the opponent being quote "slain outright". Eternal warrior says that any model gifted as such is immune to the specific "Instant Death" rule.

    Can anyone help me find credible, and printable, proof that I was not in the wrong there?

    Thanks!
    2H

    Last edited by TwoHats; February 23rd, 2009 at 20:14.
    2H - LEGIO HYDRA

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  3. #2
    Nightlord frozencore's Avatar
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    Daemonhunter Nemisis Force weapons slay outright, it is not instant death, and therefor eternal warrior does not protect them. Think of it this way...they are daemonhunters they should be good at killing those big nasty daemons.

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    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    There's nothing more to say that you haven't said already.

    Rules As Written (RAW) is explicitly stated as the law of the game. The BRB itself says so.

    Codex rules override the BRB rules. The BRB itself says so.

    The DH codex rules for force weapons make no mention of Instant Death, the special rule that exists in 5th edition 40K (and existed in 4th edition, too, as it happens). Eternal Warrior only protects against Instant Death, the special rule that exists in 5th edition 40K (and existed in 4th edition, too, as it happens).

    It cannot be helped that the DH is saddled with a codex that is older than even 4th edition 40K, and was built for a gaming environment that had no notion of Instant Death (or Eternal Warrior, of course).

    If GW felt that the issue was worth fixing with errata, they would have done so. They didn't, so we're stuck not only with gloriously potent force weapons, but also ridiculously impotent storm shields and assault cannons, etc. There are good and bad parts to "codex creep", and we have to live with them all. Your friend included.

    Now, GW highly encourages house-ruling the game to your heart's content. You are more than free to "update" your force weapons to act as noted in the 5th edition BRB. But that needs to be negotiated, and you need to make it clear to your friend the true depth of the issue where the DH codex is concerned. There are many MANY RAW oddities in the codex that need to be discussed if they're going to cause problems at game time.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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    Ender of Threads Wraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frozencore View Post
    Daemonhunter Nemisis Force weapons slay outright, it is not instant death, and therefor eternal warrior does not protect them. Think of it this way...they are daemonhunters they should be good at killing those big nasty daemons.
    Yup, not Instant Death... It's Death, Instantly! Enjoy!

    Honestly, given the number of our special rules the new Daemons get to run roughshod over, it's only fair!
    We've got plenty of youth... How about a fountain of smart?


  6. #5
    jy2
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    Hive Fleet Pandora jy2's Avatar
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    We claim it kills instantly as it should if we follow Rules As Written (RAW). Problem is, we are only about 10%. The other 90% of 40k opponents (armies, that is) will cry foul, esp. if they're not familiar with DH rules. That's why before I play each opponent, I always go into detail about my NFW before the game begins, and come to some kind of decision that both my opponent and I will accept (usually, if they're cool and you let them know beforehand, they'll give it to you).

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    Senior Member Utsujin's Avatar
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    Uh, the GW mananger who isvery knowledgable and I completely agree with, is that since it's a force weapon, it follows the rules for force weapons in the BGB or whatever color the book is follow the rules for force weapons in that book. I don't know why people try to consistantly assume that our force weapon is that much better, yea GK are hard to play as it is, but that's how the rules are.
    Why.

  8. #7
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utsujin View Post
    Uh, the GW mananger who isvery knowledgable and I completely agree with, is that since it's a force weapon, it follows the rules for force weapons in the BGB or whatever color the book is follow the rules for force weapons in that book. I don't know why people try to consistantly assume that our force weapon is that much better, yea GK are hard to play as it is, but that's how the rules are.
    It's not wrong to play the game that way (anyone may use any rules they like, GW is happy with this)...

    ... but it IS wrong to insist that this is how the rules of the game are written. Outside of house-ruling, it's all very simple and laid out quite clearly.

    1. RAW > "logic" or "common sense"

    2. FAQ > Codex > BRB

    Does your knowledgable GW manager also allow DH smoke launchers to reduce all hits on vehicles to glancing? Do DH thunder hammers auto-shake vehicles? If not, then you are not playing RAW, and you are not allowing the Codex rules to override BRB rules.

    This is spelled out clearly in the BRB.

    Page 63, for example, in reference to smoke launchers:

    "It is worth pointing out that some armies might
    use different versions of smoke launchers, which
    have slightly different rules. As normal, the rules in
    the Codex take precedence."

    I think it's worth emphasizing the last sentence there again:
    "As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence."

    This paragraph right there states, generally, that Codex rules will always override the BRB.

    Page 66, in reference to transports:

    "Only infantry models may embark in transports [...] unless a Codex book states otherwise."

    And again on page 74, for example, in reference to USRs:

    "As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include
    one of these special rules and the rule is different, the
    one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how
    the general special rule applies to that specific race)."

    There are numerous other examples. These are just the ones that stood out to me.

    Again, it is perfectly acceptable to vary from RAW and let the BRB override the codex when and where you please. But that isn't actually RAW to do so, and playing with variant rules like that must be agreed upon ahead of time, not dictated by fiat by people who aren't reading the rules closely enough (like your GW manager).
    Last edited by number6; February 24th, 2009 at 20:43.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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    Senior Member Utsujin's Avatar
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    Very true, and yes, I play that our smoke launchers reduce penetrating to glancing hits. Yea, it would make sense taht our FW should be better than the smurfies. The chaos demon player doesnt play that way though... sigh.
    Why.

  10. #9
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utsujin View Post
    Yea, it would make sense taht our FW should be better than the smurfies. The chaos demon player doesnt play that way though... sigh.
    You make it sound like the Chaos Daemon player has any choice in the matter.

    He doesn't.

    He may ask to negotiate with you, and you may choose to agree. But outside of that, the Chaos Daemons player is simply going to have to accept the RAW. Otherwise, he is cheating.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  11. #10
    jy2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utsujin View Post
    Very true, and yes, I play that our smoke launchers reduce penetrating to glancing hits. Yea, it would make sense taht our FW should be better than the smurfies. The chaos demon player doesnt play that way though... sigh.
    If that is the case, tell him your storm shields give your knights 3+ Inv saves also, and that your assault cannons fire 4 rending shots.

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