Way Of The Water Warrior - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Way Of The Water Warrior

    Is it not a bit over-rated? I mean, it's basically a tactica that tells you to play reactively with an army of the best generalist units in the game... what else can you do with Grey Knights but play reactively? We don't have the options that the players of most other armies have. In the case of almost all the other armies you need to at least tweak, and in some cases completely retool, your army list between games. If you're a CSM player and you've got a game agains a Tau player your HQ is going to be tooled up to get into and melt faces in close combat and you'll probably throw some large Zerker squads into your list. The next day you play a Nids army and you're using Plague Marines to tar-pit the assault Nids while your Noise Marines are running around cutting footsloggers to bits with their Assault weapons.

    If you're a Grey Knights player your list is exactly the same in both games; the only difference is you may either be backpedalling or moving forward while you're spamming bolter shots. Surely that's just common sense?...


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    Common sense? Yes. But how many people do you play with that lack any sense let alone some of the common variety.
    The way of the water warrior is a great tool for new and average players to learn what the best strategies are. Sometimes people need to have the common stuff wrote down or told to them so they have a better understanding of it.
    I know for me it was invaluable to help me learn our strengths and weaknesses with each piece as well as some strategies against each type of army.

  4. #3
    Senior Member farmpunk's Avatar
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    I feel the Water Warrior tactica is good to read, and see what others think about how to use the army.
    I find that with both Inquisition armies, I need to look at what I am facing before I can really decide on how offense or defense oriented I will have to be.

    His philosophy on how to play is HIS way to play. He was successful in 4th ed. I personally don't care for some of his 'legal', but slightly unsportsmanlike abuses of rules. (like modelling Land Raider doors to open, so to get an extra inch out of the disembark)

    There are good concepts in there. learning to play defensively reactively is valuable vs quite a few armies, and knowing when to become pro-active and play aggressively reactionary is important as well.


    I do use things that Water Warrior tactics won't recommend. But I play differently to him. Probably because my first army was WH, and with Sisters, you've got to know when to take the fight to the enemy. I do the same with my GK's. Mostly because I owned a LRC because of a trade. I've used the LRC defensively, and offensively. vs. Ork hordes, it skitters 12" firing hurricanes and assault cannons into hordes, with the GK's that might have ridden in it walking and firing 24". The very same unit vs IG will charge across the field, disembark the GK's for charges, and shoot things across the board.
    I also find a Shooty Inquisitor Lord retinue invaluable. Water warrior lists won't really have those either.


    I think it's important to keep in mind, that while the Water Warrior tactica is a good primer, it's not the ONLY way to do DH successfully.
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    I dont think its unsportsmanlike to use the doors that GW gave us, and for that matter molded to open. We are talking about the front hatch right? doesnt that have a hinge on it so it can be opened?

  6. #5
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_houghton98 View Post
    Common sense? Yes. But how many people do you play with that lack any sense let alone some of the common variety. The way of the water warrior is a great tool for new and average players to learn what the best strategies are. Sometimes people need to have the common stuff wrote down or told to them so they have a better understanding of it.
    I know for me it was invaluable to help me learn our strengths and weaknesses with each piece as well as some strategies against each type of army.
    I'm not saying it's useless or anything; far from it, because on paper the Grey Knights would win an assault against pretty much anything below Elite in most Codexes and having someone spell out the various strengths and weaknesses of your units saves you the tedium of learning them yourself. It just seems a bit blatant to me that you don't go round looking for assault victories against Khorne armies, or sit back and try to out-shoot the Tau, or whatever.

    The other thing that bothers me is, once upon a time putting together a Grey Knight force was about reducing the likelihood of Deep Striking your FAGKs into a big wall and resisting the temptation to throw filled-out Terminator squads and a ridiculously tooled-up Grandmaster at people in 750pt games. Now you've got people dismissing Deep Strike out of hand and trying to wedge Land Raiders into a force at 1000pts, because that's what WOTWW says works. None of this is the author's fault; one of the first things he says is "this is my list, and it fits me perfectly", and it may well be an organic progression considering the new rules on scoring units, but it's a bit worrying that we have at our disposal some of the best generalist models in the game and the most creative way we can think of to deploy them is in 5-man squads with a Brother-Captain and a Land Raider.

  7. #6
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fugger View Post
    I'm not saying it's useless or anything; far from it, because on paper the Grey Knights would win an assault against pretty much anything below Elite in most Codexes
    This statement is exactly why it's nice to have someone describe what it means to "play reactively". In my experience playing the army and offering advice on web forums about the army, the vast majority of players coming to the DH assume the following:

    1. Grey Knights are primarily assault units, and they are one of the game's best assault units.

    2. Playing with the Daemonhunters will be a lot like playing with Space Marines.

    Both assumptions are flat-out wrong, and playing a few games should quickly disabuse people of both notions. It's that frustration that often sends people to the web forums wondering What went wrong? and Why am I losing?

    Hindsight is 20-20, but sometimes it's extremely difficult to get past one's preconceived notions in order to get the benefit of other players' hard-earned hindsight. Just human nature, is all.

    In my conversations (both public and private) with Silent Requiem, I asserted very strongly that land raiders aren't required to play the DH. Most games I don't play with land raiders at all. They're occasional units I use to change things up. Otherwise, my heavy support is Dreadnoughts, often supplemented with some allied Seraphim. The "reactive" precepts still work just fine, and it was the playstyle I was using long before Silent Requiem wrote his opus -- though for obvious reasons the overall game plays out significantly differently when the list isn't based on raiders. Doesn't mean the precepts outlined in the tactica aren't useful.

    Don't get hung up on SR's particular list build. And don't get upset if people want to emulate that. If people like the army well enough, they'll eventually try out different things. I know I did! I came at the Land Raider Issue in reverse, in fact. I was a staunch hater of all things land raider, and recommended against them almost every time. It was only the final 9 months or so of 4th edition that I decided I wanted to try them out "for reals". I was actually tired of my usual list and wanted something different to play with, a new challenge to tackle.

    It's more important that people want to play Daemonhunters. It's more important to help them play the army successfully than to worry about undue land raider influence.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  8. #7
    Senior Member Utsujin's Avatar
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    Eh, since I have the attention span of a grapefruit, I forget everything I read and learn. I just play to play and that's it. So far it's worked fine for me so far. I am against using raiders, as that is one good sized squad of GK's I could take instead. I play an allfootslogging list with 3 dreads with TL LC and ML. Taking hammerhand on my GM and meltabombs on my justicars is usually enough to deal with most armor. If not, I try to ignore it and focus on the rest of the army.

    From what I remember, water warrior tactics I do use quite often, I've used them before he wrote up his thing on that, and i was like, interesting.
    Why.

  9. #8
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    That's the thing, though; "water warrior" tactics, that is, fitting your moves and actions around what your opponent does rather than trying to impose your character on the game, they're the only tactics a pure Grey Knights force can use. They're a jack of all trades, master of none outfit; in some games you'll use them as an unstoppable force, some games you'll use them as an immovable object, and some games will require you to strike a balance, but you can't know which one it'll be until you've rolled your mission objectives and your oppo shows you what you're up against. The precepts of the tactica are always valid no matter what's in your list because they're the only precepts by which a pure Grey Knights force can operate; the only unit which goes against the GK mechanics of out-and-out flexibility in all things are Purgation Squads, and I'd conjecture that's he reason you never see them.

    I suppose what I'm trying to say is WOTWW is a fantastic tactica and pretty much essential reading if you're new to GK lists, because chances are if you've come to the Daemonhunters you've done so with Nemesis Force-tinted glasses and the sooner you're denuded of your CC-oriented misconceptions the better your Grey Knights will serve you. It's also a good idea to read it if you're not new to GK lists and are having problems making them work. What it's not is a Gospel that shows the One True List, which is how a lot of people seem to be approaching it. There's no such thing as a "water warrior" list; the Grey Knights are water warriors by definition. There's nothing in their arsenal that can't adapt to any given set of parameters, so dismissing things like Deep Strike, Dreads and Termies out of hand isn't a good idea unless you can make 5-man squads and Land Raiders work for you in the same way the author can.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Utsujin's Avatar
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    You know, actually using water warrior tactics works very well with noise marines with sonic blasters and chap with doom siren and power weapon. The points are roughly the same, and the noise marines can dish out more shots as well.
    Why.

  11. #10
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Yup, morseso if you give them a Blastmaster Plus, with the improved Initiative they get from being degenerate Slaaneshi perverts, they're slightly better than the average Smurf/ Spiky Smurf in close combat too. Last game I lost was against a CSM player; 2 squads of Noise Marines with Blastmasters and meltabomb-toting Champions, 2 squads of Thousand Sons with Bolt of Change on the Sorcerors, a Daemon Weapon Tzeentch Lord and a single Obliterator to fill points. I was running a so-called "water warrior" list and ended the game with 3 models on the board; between all the AP3 shots, pie-plates, and invulnerable saves I just couldn't touch him. The highlight was him turning my 250+ points-worth of Land Raider into a pile of scrap with a 5 point meltabomb, which goes to show they're really not the be-all and end-all.

    As an aside, that list there is an example of what I mean when I say that the GKs are water warriors by definition; my opponent put it together specifically to wipe out a low model count power armoured army. You can't tune a Grey Knights list, or any DH list for that matter, so finely, which is why the GKs are so versatile on the board. As an aside, I went back with a couple of Dreads and a Termie squad and wiped his little pink guitar heroes out on turn 4, so balance is restored >_<

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