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Oh lord won't somebody PLEASE think of the Radicals?!
All the clamour for an updated Codex seems to be focused around the Grey Knights. Personally I don't think the Grey Knights need anything more than an FAQ that explains once and for all how their rules work in the grand scope of 5th ed and puts the Assault Cannon/ Storm Shield/ Psychic Hood issues to bed once and for all. The Grey Knights are fine as-is. Elite Dreadnoughts, a beefier Brother-Captain to take as a HQ choice and/ or a few more Special Characters a la Smurf Codex 5th ed or CSM 4th would be nice options to have, but Chapter 666 will keep on keepin' on without them. The biggest problem the DH Codex has arises when one tries to build a list without Grey Knights. It's hard to build a workable list from the non-GK entries without sinking tons of points into the HQ and Elites sections. The abject lack of utility in the ISTs means your options for a non-GK list are limited to pouring box after box of Grenade Launching Kasrkins onto the table and attempting to swarm all over the opposition in Orky fashion, making the list top-heavy with obscenely tooled-up Lord and Inquisitor retinues (who rarely impress in any role other than fire support) and Assassins (who are good enough but are still only one model), or taking allies/ inductees, in which case you'd be as well making a Smurf/ IG list and just taking the Inquisitor/ Lord retinue as an ally since that allows you access to Chapter/ Regiment special abilities and means you don't have to take any god-awful ISTs.
Then we consider the Radical player, who not only has to contend with all of these problems but also has the added dilemma of Daemonhosts. As fun as Daemonhosts are to use their ability to force Pinning tests on everything within 12" can cause serious problems for lists that rely on large numbers of low-Ld units. Lists such as non-GK DH with inducted Guard. Thus, his choices are either including the Hosts in the hope they're far enough away not to Pin most of his troops when that particular ability goes off, or take DCAs instead and be a foppy, name-only Radical who might as well have taken Grey Knights. I realise that nobody comes to the Daemonhunters to play as a Radical. I didn't. I came for the Grey Knights and I stay for the Grey Knights, but I'm of the opinion that if GW is going to give us 2 ways to play an army then they should each be as viable as the other, and in the case of Radical DH lists that just isn't the case.
Here's what I'm suggesting. Instead of asking for tweaks and changes to the Grey Knights that they really don't need, let's hope that when the new Codex comes out it gives more viability to non-GK lists. More options for the ISTs to make them a little less cumbersome and brittle (or possibly even a non-GK-only alternative to the ISTs; Sisters Of Silence squads, Arbites, Skitarii even, something like that), Radical-only and non-GK-only wargear and retinue options that allow Lords and Inquisitors to be configured effectively for different roles (as opposed to turning them into ineffective point-sinks as is currently the case), and some decent home-Codex Heavy Support that doesn't require Grey Knights to be part of the force. At the moment the Daemonhunters Codex could best be described as "Grey Knights and their little friends"; giving people who don't want to play GKs more freedom to do so would be a step away from that and might finally give the Daemonhunters some personality of their own and give the old "GKs are Daemonhunters, not Smurfs, that's why they don't play like Smurfs" argument some real weight.
So yeah. Please, think of the Radicals...
You bring up some good points, Frank. And to be honest - I have never *ever* seen a radical army on the table. I always thought to myself - once I get through painting ALL my DH and inducted Sisters, I will get around to doing some radicals just for kix.
Since it is much more inquisitor focused, it also might be kind of cool if radical inquisitors had extended induction rules - certainly more guard, and what about some alien races. In the last chancer's series, the inquisitor hooks up with some Tau...
The fluff kind of pegs the radicals as off doing their own thing, as they grow more and more radical: getting hunted by their own kind, not spending too much time in one place...you can see where they would just show up at some far outpost unexpected and use their authority to requisition a varied and "motley" band of units.
There are Exorcists Space Marines, but IIRC they were created with the knowledge of the GK - would have been interesting to have them instead of the PAGK as a loyalist/radical option but there you go.
Ordo Hydra perhaps, i'd considered running 6 enslavers (2 HQ choices) from the old creature feature and an elite inquisitor as a hydra retinue.
Obviously some kind of daemonic / warp-based weaponry for the radicals. Horusian experimentals (fielding ST squads with random upgrades).
-actually I always though it would be interesting to have the WH/DH's stormtroopers upgraded based on a kind of 'doctrine' taken for an inquisitor(or lord) - similar to the way that marine ATSKNF gets changed for different chapters.
The sisters of silence and arbiters are more of a WH thing. Though the idea of a high-level psyker brought off a black ship as a radical WH choice is scary in a 'who needs orbital strikes' kind of way.
i'd love to see more radical stuff. right now my dh list is radical in name only (i don't use hosts, yet anyway, and i use a lot of "counts as" items, like an eviscerator as a daemon weapon and so forth).
adding fast attack and heavy support options for non-gk lists in general, as well as daemon/warp based weaponry and other wargear would be giant leaps in the right direction.
(i'd also like the =][= lord to have stats a bit more comparable to that of a space marine captain, but one step at a time is fine)
How Did This Get Here I Am Not Good With Computer
I will be adding the radical stuff to my DH dreams post in the next day or two. Just been taking me longer to playtest and come up with rules that are good lately with midterms and stuff.
- You must set fire to water or you will be extinguished.
All the clamor here is for the Grey Knights and not the radicals for 1 very simple reason. The Grey Knights sell. Period. Probably 90% of all those who got into the DH army did it because of the knights. And almost everyone here talks about the grey knights. If GW de-emphasized the GK's and focused on the radicals in their next release, I can say IMO that their new codex probably wouldn't sell. Though they could improve on their radicals, the main emphasis would be on updating/increasing anything relating to the knights in their next release (as well as incorporating the Witch Hunters).
You don't have to detract from the Puritan army list choices to make the Radical side of the Codex more attractive and viable; giving the non-GK list units bonuses that they can only take without taking Grey Knights is not going to stop anyone wanting to play GKs, but it'll allow those who don't want to use Grey Knights for whatever reason to remain competetive.And almost everyone here talks about the grey knights. If GW de-emphasized the GK's and focused on the radicals in their next release, I can say IMO that their new codex probably wouldn't sell.What about the Grey Knights needs to be improved exactly? What else can you give the Grey Knights to make them more effective? :-oThough they could improve on their radicals, the main emphasis would be on updating/increasing anything relating to the knights in their next release (as well as incorporating the Witch Hunters).
I think improving the radical list is the best reason to mix all of the ordos in one codex. Then you could have alien armed guardsmen as troops, Daemonhosts and Arcos as elites, and Pentitents as heavy supports with an Inquisitor as an HQ. Then they just need to come up with a few more special units and you have a decent (not great) army list. Otherwise I think they should take them out and make a white dwarf codex for the non chamber inquisition.
True enough that the Grey Knights are pretty complete. I myself believe that they don't need much for the sake of game balance. They don't need anything major besides a few tweaks (better fast attack, venerable dreadies, eternal warrior & WS6 for GM, etc.)...things that we already saw in previous posts here. The puritan forces, on the other hand, also need just a few minor tweaks and maybe some additions, but not by a lot. What I'm interested in seeing by GW is the integration of the sisters and brother (captains ) in their next release. Just combining the 2 will give a whole new level of play to the inquisitorial forces. And add to that the possibility of an Ordo Xenos (or whatever they'll call it), it's definitely got my approval. Btw, I've already started to add some sisters to my DH army.
A combined Inquisition codex has the potential to solve a lot of the problems Puritan players (and those of us who like GK/ SoB lists) have at a stroke. How awesome would it be NOT to have to cut back on your PAGK squads in order to squeeze a few more mounted Sisters or Seraphim into your list, or be able to field GK Dreads alongside a Sisters force? Most other Codexes have more units in their army list than the WH and DH Codexes combined and there's a lot of cross-over between the two. There's not much point keeping them as seperate entities.
As long as they take the opportunity to make the Radical side of things more than just an afterthought I'm all for a combined Inquisition Codex. Maybe they'll even let us take Eldar or Tau allies if we go Radical ordo xenos? It'd be fluffy, plus it'd give GW the opportunity to sell Eldar/ Tau models to people who wouldn't normally buy them and GW ain't likely to pass up the chance to sell more kits.