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I had a game I played recently with a Black Templar playing friend of mine. He believed that somewhere some GW faq said that older space marine codexes apparantly use the weapon profiles of the new 5th ed. codex. Bassically he wanted his SS/TH Terminators getting the 3+ invulnarable save.
For the sake of argument I didn't really care, plus I thought it would make the game more interesting. I even said, hey, might as well give the Power of the Machine Spirit on your Land Riader BS 4 and be able to shoot at a different target.
I still won of course.
HOWEVER, If it was an official GW tournament, I'm 99% sure that if he is using the BT codex, or any space marine codex that isn't the new 5th edition codex: Space marines, he must use all the rules as they are explained in his codex, including their inferior-invulnerable-save-in-CC-only storm shields.
Am I right or am I wrong? Please explain your reasoning.
You are correct!
As I know it, the BT codex has a better combat shield than codexpace Marines, so do we get to use theirs? or do they get to pick and chose which wargear they want to upgrade? I dont think so.
What is in their book is what they get, period.
Example, the BA codex has been upgraded to 5th, and they still get the old storm shield profile.
"Fear not and look up to the sky for salvation, for we have entered orbit."
Blood Angels 2nd Grail Guard Company
The only exception to this rule is Space Wolves. They use the new SM codex for their weapons profiles, as well as for the costs of vehicles (Rhinos, Razors, Pods, LRs, Speeders, Whirlwinds, Vindicators...think that's it)
If you win games against Nids with flamers (aside from the Inferno Cannon on a Hellhound), you're playing against opponents with stupidity of impressive magnitude.
Yeah that's right, technically there is nothing to say he can use the new wargear and vehicles and certainly wouldn't be allowed at a major tournament.
You could let him do it, but the trouble is that it messes with the balance of the codex. Although I am loathe to take new Templars because of the worse SS and vehicles (particularly PotMS), I still think it is pretty unbalanced to just paste those rules on to current Templars.
Personally I tend to either use my Templars to represent codex marines these days, or just take them normally. I don't think it's fair on your opponent to ask him to give you the best of both worlds.
Hopefully we will see a new codex before too long, but Blood Angels are rumoured to be the next ones after Space Wolves, and I can't see GW releasing more than one Space Marine codex per year, so a while yet I would imagine.
In a way I kind of hope the min/max Terminator squads and the like get abused at tournaments in order to speed the process along!
If you look at the October 2008 Dark Angels Faq it states that strictly speaking you should always go by your own codex, buts it perfectly reasonable under "house rules" to update equipment rules, but if you feel that something would give an "unfair advantage you shouldn't use it. While this is only in the DA faq I would assume this can apply to BT and BA as well.
Either way, most of the people in my game group found this more confusing than helpful. For an upcoming tournament we have the rule that all Imperial armies (aka, the non codex marines, guard and inquisition) will use the vehicle listings from the revised Imperial Armor II book. While not a set house rule quite yet, it has been addressed as a possibility since there is a DA player, a BA player and I'm starting Templar. Of course, one can't go both ways by saying "I want a land raider with the new machine spirit, but I want the old dreadnought that has a cheaper assault cannon and smoke launchers that cause all hits to be glancing as opposed to just a cover save". In addition, you only get vehicles that you have access to otherwise, so a BT still does not get a whirlwind.
Personally I think Imperial Armor revisions is fine because it standardizes the various vehicles and the balance is more or less the same as the regular space marine codex. However I think that using the other equipment entries is a more slippery slope since there seems to be a bunch of judgment calls involved. In a tournament I would hope for move solid rules more towards the end of rules as written. In pickup games if its someone I'm playing against, I might be fine with it as long as they're not abusing it.
Last edited by brgerkng; March 13th, 2009 at 18:24. Reason: spelling
I'd let them use the new storm shield rules and such as long as they payed the points for the new version instead of the old one.
Likewise with the LR redeemer and power of the machine spirit. Keep things even between the marine chapters.
IG Best Gen 1st overall of 10 DE 4th overall of 6
Eldar 3rd Overall/Best General of 26--2nd Overall/Best General of 7--1st Overall/Best General of 11
It would definitely screw up the balance, though, and I'm not sure Black Templars (or Blood Angels, for that matter) are in such a slump that they need that, as Daemonhunters would.
I say you are right.
He can only use them if you allow him to use them, iirc I dont think theres anything saying that in the FAQ. If hes playing with Templars then his entire army is chosen from that codex-including weapons/differant wargear wording etc.
I think the problem arises here because both the DA and BT codexes missed out on the new stuff normal Marines got and players using those codexes want the best of both worlds.
Personally Id be against it-no mixing and matching of rules/wargear from different codexes.
(I probably sound like Im moaning big-time here but this is one of my pet hates about 40k recently)
Last edited by Memnoch; March 13th, 2009 at 20:30.
Currently play: 4000+ of Black Legion
It would be nice for GW to streamline some rules, wouldn't it? They don't have to give every army every unit, but if Storm Shields and Power of the Machine Spirit are present in 5 different codices, it should have the same rules. That's why USRs are USRs - they are the same no matter what army uses them. Similar concept, only with wargear and "race" specific rules.