Welcome to Librarium Online!
I'm a tad late with my third installment of Reckless Predictions considering many folks have already seen the actual Codex, but I can still do some predictive analysis on what we expect to see and make some decent analysis of each FOC slot
For reference: first installment, second installment.
'ere we go:
The fallacy of 9 tanks and/or Vendettas:
The first truth folks have to get used to is that most of our armies are not getting bigger by any significant amount. All armor went up by 5 points or more and all those wonderful goodies they are giving us also cost points. So yeah, you can take 9 Vendettas (1170 points) or 9 stripped Russes (1350 points) but not both in a 1850 point game. And you'll also lose as soon as your opponent kills all your infantry. Or in the case of the skimmers, kill them outright. No holofields for guard...
Don't forget squadroning rules. Go to the BGB and read up. I'll wait.
Yeah, 3 pie plates or 9 twin-linked lascannons against a single target are a bit of overkill. The pie Plates, not as much since everyone on Holy Terra gets cover saves, but I can tell you that in my current triple Russ list I've never fired all three battle cannons at the same unit.
Oh, and Immobilized = destroyed, in case you missed it.
So there are drawbacks. Once we all get over the ZOMG! NINE TANKS feeling, we'll probably settle on smaller numbers in games under 2000 points.
But there is also another reason we won't see as many 9 tank lists as folks think. There are other goodies to spend the points on. Would you rather have 9 Leman Russes or 6 Leman Russes + The artillery officer + six Spearhead Sentinels? hmmm
But yeah, we'll all run it at least once... JUST BECAUSE WE CAN. MUHAHHAHA!
...but it won't be optimal...
The Death and Rebirth of All-Infantry Guard:
So now we know how GW will address killpoints and it is both good and bad. For those who just want to know how platoons will work::
Command (No longer contains an Independent Character) -1 KP
Platoon Squads (Can merge into Ork Mobs of up to 50 ) 1-5 KP
Heavy Weapons squads (Can't merge and are now 2 wound models) Which sucks, I'm not going to argue with you. It just made a 6 wound team even more vulnerable.
It is unknown if the command squad can merge into the Platoon Mob. If they can't then, well, it hurts us.. a lot.
Special Weapons Squads (also can not merge, but at least we still get plasma!)
One more important note: The leadership bubble is apparently gone. No more HSO with Standard saving your ass (hence why the command squad merge question is critical)
So what does this mean? Guard infantry will still be incredibly annoying in KP missions, just less auto-loss. (Beardy_Wierdy's anecdotes aside).
Why annoying? Because your old-fashioned 50 man platoon just became a big crappy version of an Ork mob, but with Leadership 8 (Vet Sgts are standard). Against shooty armies they will be nails and probably ignored. Against assault armies you'll still be rolling at huge negative leadership modifiers. HUGE. That +1 standard will help against Tau when you charge them. /sarcasm.
However, in objective missions the cheap dudes, plethora of Orders trickery and Vet Sgt Leadership will help in that inevitable slog to the objective. (Remember, I'm talking about the all-infantry lists here.
One more thing. Remember how all-infantry guard worked, in part, because heavy weapons taken by your enemy were wasted points? The answer here is 2-wound heavy teams being instakilled. LDC since they don't get Sgts... Oh and they don't merge, so no ablative wounds.
Life didn't get any easier for us. Sorry. But at least we get more men!
PS: Heavy Teams are scoring units now so Mortars have a use again. Sit on the home objective and block LOS with a Chimera or a Russ.
on a related note:
The Death and Rebirth of All-Infantry Guard part 2: Captain Chekhov:
So for whatever his upgrade cost is, plus another 75 points, the Guard get Without Number on Conscripts. (For those who have no idea what I mean, play against Without Number Termagants in a Capture and Control game /shudders)
BUT IS IT WAY BETTER THAN THAT!
Why? Because, if rumors are true, you don't have to Wait for the squad to be destroyed. What does this mean? Conscripts just became harder to farm kill points from. If you manage to keep them from getting wiped, they simple veil off board and run back on at full strength. The points cost is high, but this might very well be an easter egg for us.
Then again, it could be a few wording changes from totally useless.
This also leads into my next thought...
What the hell happened to this? No word, at all, about this making it into the codex. /sigh. Hurts Infantry Builds the most by it's absence.
Master of the Fleet:
-1 to your opponent's reserver rolls... Might hurt Daemons. Might help or hurt podding marines... I dunno...
Astropath: I love the model, but lately I've been trying to push back my reserves with Improved Commas. This goes with specific builds.
Master of Ordinance: If you have the points, probably a no-brainer.
Sly Marbo: Is he really going to be an Elite? If so, he is the best choice in the 'dex if rumors hold.
Primaris Psyker: If he can join a line squad or take a retinue, rumors say he might give us a reason to not use the Witch Hunters of Deamon Hunters Codexes for our other HQ slot.
I'm running out of space so expect to see my breakdown of the FOC slots in subsequent posts!
Last edited by RecklessFable; March 23rd, 2009 at 16:43. Reason: Stuff I forgot to mention
Your first major point is something so many people have convenitntly forgotten, tansk still cost points and so do valks, then you need your two infantry choices and an HQ.
There are so many goodies in the codex it is really good.
As far as the killpoints situation goes its not that bad really, you dont have to take platoons as a cumpolsory choice and the HQ can have some nice stuff and still not be too fragile.
I do think what you say on it has merit though, one assault squad and now your whole platoon cant shoot, it encourages heavy weapons squads outside of the main squads which is actually not too bad an idea.
I think we will see much more diversity internally with guard armies but im not sure how much diversity across different armies there will be though with the amount of cool stuff in there i dunno.
psssst astropath not osteopath unless they are thinking about bones of course and then i shall retract my comment.
anyway nice bunch of thoughts
You haven't already mentioned Doctrines and multiple plasmas demise.
But everything is more fluffy then Drop-Trooping Cameleolined Guardsmen.
We still don't know the exact allowances for command squads or vets so plasma-spam might not be dead yet, just less mobile.
Infantry Platoons are looking pretty solid (for the most part) in the new codex.
However, I can see one commissar per platoon becoming mandatory. The ability to make large units of infantry (usually in KP missions) helps IG a lot, but the risk of having that unit be swept is too great. This is where a commissar comes in, giving them Stubborn (and fearless if they fail) is need.
Just think of a 50 man unit on an objective. It would be difficult to assault that unit and simply get 3" away from the actual objective. I see this unit being powerful in both KP and objective games. Not to mention the idea of 50 lasguns rapid firing for a total of 150 shots... makes me smile.
There has not been much info on Voxes, other than they allow you to reroll Ld for Orders. It will be important to figure out how much they cost and which units can take them. And if you need a "master vox", voxes are sounding like they will be important, so hopefully the cost is not too high.
HWS/SWS, both 6 wound units, so very vulnerable. So far no confirmation that they will have access to a Sgt or Vox... so they may be stuck with Ld7 (remember, no more Leadership ability from your officers). If this is the case, not only will they have a good chance of running from any shooting losses, but their success rate for Orders is really crappy. Unless there is more information not yet know (possible), these units are looking questionable at best.... Perhaps if you stick them in a chimera (which is now said to have 5 fire points).
Conscripts, the big question i have about them is can you give them a commissar? if you can, then awesome, if not... then they are extremely risky. 235 points for 50 and a commissar would be awesome
Overall, i think IG infantry is going to be solid. Hopefully Platoon Drill is in the codex (may require voxes).
The problem with the huge merged platoons is that it only takes one enemy assault unit to tie up a squad of up to 50 men. A unit of guardsmen that large might eventually chew through a Marine Assault Squad, but that one squad is going to keep your 50 guardsmen from firing for quite some time. The merged platoon idea is a pretty weak attempt at balancing out Guard's killpoint issues. I doubt I'll use it beyond merging a platoon dedicated to anti-horde (possibly, since tanks seem to fill that role better), or a more mobile platoon. The latter would be viable as long as Command Squads can merge as well, so you could have a minimum-strength platoon with 25 men and say 6 grenade launchers which can move towards objectives and lay dow decent firepower.
Conscripts I wouldn't see any point in having anymore except for Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave" order which gives one Conscript Platoon "Without Number." They didn't even decrease the point cost of a conscript, so you can pay 4 points per conscript, or 5 points per guardsman and get +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 leadership, frag grenades, a free Veteran Sergeant, and the option to add special and heavy weapons. Aside from that never-ending lemming squad, they seem completely pointless.
Platoon Drill seems like either a fabrication or a rule they considered before the platoon merging concept came about. I've read posts from numerous people on WarSeer that have gotten looks at the codex, and not one has mentioned platoon drill. Seems like the only way to get around handing out cover saves is to use that stupid merging mechanic.
"I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."~Lord Yossanrion"Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."~Quick"Well thought, intelligently put, with a hint of sarcastic bastard!"~Diggum's Hammer
A 50man squad with a commissar sitting on an objective (in cover), will be the best objective holder in the game.
Yes, they can "tie up" the whole unit, but that also means they're doing nothing as well with that unit (as it slowly hacks though a mass of guardsmen).
I plan on running 2-3 platoons. One of which will consist of 55pt Flamer squads and a Commissar. Not to expensive, can kick out a lot of anti horde firepower and will not budge from an objective.
Don't forget that we can merge infantry squads any way we want. 20man 30man, ect. Throw some commissars into the mix, and we have some really solid objective holders.
Infantry Platoons are probably one of the strongest things we have going for us in the new codex.
Do you guys think with the new tanks armored company rules will come out for normal games?
We who have seen war will never stop seeing it....In the silence of the night, we will always hear the screams....