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Everyone loves the Sternguard.. they are cool, they got their ammo and combis and they can even count as scoring when fielded alongside our dear Pedro..
Their brothers from the fast attack selection, the Vanguard, on the other side doesn't seem nearly as popular.. Understandable, I guess, as their special rule points towards a rather hazardous gambling that can hardly be considered viable.. However I do see some uses for them.. but please(, please!) correct me if I'm wrong..
It kinda saddens me that when I occasionally see Vanguard being fielded they always show up with their jumppacks.. My main problem with the jumppacks is that I find them too expensive for what they do (Im sure most of you'll agree with me on that).. They'r still vulnerable while flying towards the enemy.. and with TLoS they rarely find anything to hide behind.. Deepstriking them succesfully requires either one kind of luck or the other.. Either rolling the right scatter or by having a cunning plan of bringing locator beacons close to the enemy in one way or the other and then hope for them to arrive from reserve after the beacons and before the beacons are destroyed.. But I like the unit and it's options.. The potential I see in those guys is the 3 attacks each as base (4 on charge!) and the possibility of fielding several special close combat weapons within the squad (even a relic blade).. Place them in a Rhino or even a LR and Add a chaplain for rerolls on charge or even Kantor for even more attacks and they sure would pack a punch.. An expensive unit I know.. but sure deadly aswell.. The question is now.. Why wouldn't this work? Too expensive for just one unit?
I've been planning a Space Marine army for a while now.. however I just can't seem to settle on what 'theme' I should go for.. I liked the 4ed. in which you could 'take the fight to them', ie. field your tacticals with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords.. Now in the 5ed codex the closest you get is either assault marines without jumppacks or the Vanguard.. Neither of them are scoring however.. And while the standard assault squad certainly is alot cheaper (effectively good old 15 pts/space marine considering the free Rhino) and doesn't have to pay 25 points for a power sword (the difference between the first five vanguards and the following five if some didn't follow), the Vanguard are just so much cooler (and in my eyes has the potential of being a unit to be feared)..
Any kinds of comments are appreciated (be it answers to my questions, suggestions on alternatives, explanations of why jumppacks aren't all that bad.. or even flaming about my abusive use of parentheses any answer is welcome (I'm a lonely man)).. I guess some will say.. just go Black Templars, Wolves or them Angels if you want marines fighting at close quarters that badly! And yea well.. maybe I will.. just thought I'd hear you guys out on this first.
They are too expensive for what they do. will probably get shot up right away. cost almost as much as terminators and i rather prefer a 2/5 save then a 3 armour save. they are a joke!
Traitors dine in heLL.
I personally agree with you, LastDino. I'm a huge fan of the Vanguard without Jump Packs. Never have I played using them, but still, I like them. I do not recall who said it, but they were described previously as "giving you the power to point your finger at something and make it disappear."
These guys are not the toughest men in your army. Yes, Julnlecs, they are about as expensive as Terminators, without the armor save. But how many Terminators are able to hit with the strength of a Dreadnought? Zero.
Give your Vanguard Sergeant a Relic Blade, and you've got the close combat strength of a Dreadnought, able to perform a Sweeping Advance, followed by up to 9 of his closest friends.
The only difference is playing style, honestly. Terminators are good at one thing; surviving long enough to put the hurt on someone. Vanguard, in my opinion, are good at something else entirely, and that is putting the 'dead' on someone. Whether they survive afterward or not, to me, doesn't matter. I will use them specifically to destroy any single unit on the field (Translation= whichever unit appears to be critical to my opponent's plans).
Another option to consider, LastDino, is that if you're going to take a Chapter Master, you may as well take an Honor Guard along for the ride. More Relic Blades, and Artificer Armor for that 2+. Put your Honor Guard in one Razorback and your Chapter Master + Vanguard in another. I suggest this idea, because the Chapter Champion appears to be quite well suited for Independent Character killiness. The Vanguard, while awesome, would take many, many casualties to get the job done. By sending the Master with them, I think it would give them a little bit more survivability.
Heroic Intervention is a crappy, unreliable gimmick. Combine that with a high cost and the same stats as a normal marine and you've got a very poor unit.
I would much rather run them on foot with a Chaplain in a Land Raider.
I play a Raven Guard successor chapter and use a squad of Vanguard Veterans as a pseudo-Shrike's Wing. Nothing else can really come as close as they do.
Of course, it's pretty ludicrously expensive and not viable in smaller point games, but they hit incredibly fast and tear things apart. Last game they ran through two hiding Sniperfexes in cover, then slaughtered 30 Termagants that were holding an objective.
And if you play hardball with the rules and throw a Chaplain in this squad, the more, the merrier.
For assault, they're one of the best marine units there. Far superior to assault marines, and IMO better than honour guard, Command squads and sternguard (I'll do a bit on them later - they make great assault troops)
Vanguard are expensive to begin with, and shockingly so when equipped with jump packs. However, they are not that bad to upgrade - I heartily reccomend pumping your foot squads to 9-10 where possible, and numbers always compliment assault anyway.
It's also nice to be able to upgrade some of your squad with a multitude of weapons - a smattering of storm sheilds and power weapons doesn't hurt. (or a stray melta bomb, and he can then be picked out for any nasty "overlapped" wounds.) Let's not forget the sgnt with relic blade, and a storm sheild (You won't get the two weapon bonus twice then. oh, well.)
I've been finding it quite effective to shove 9, with a basic chaplain into a rhino and cruise about the board, after deployment i move 12", pop smoke and if i deployed right I should be able to jump out and hit my target unit. (Ork mobs are a fave target) It's a shockingly expensive unit - 405 points, but bear in mind it's got a chaplain in there.
A alternative to this unit, for jumping out and kicking ork mobs / nasty asault units heads in is sternguard.
They have 2 attacks on the statline, and each unit can take 2 heavy flamers. upgrading to combi flamers is 15 points for the remaining 3 men. (and the combi weapons keep the funky ammo - 2+ to wound or AP3 are the only real options IMO.)
So, you get your 6 men, and shove them in a razorback, give the sgnt a powerfist (he'll keep the boltgun, he wasn't getting twin ccw anyway) three combi flamers and two heavy flamers.
Normally players won't suspect the razorback with 6 sternguard in to wipe out a large ork mob in one turn.
In a apocalypse game i did 34 wounds in shooting, then 9 in melee vs a green tide. That was a nice picture.
Just as they have cool ranged weapons doesn't mean they can't be used to beat stuff.
I heartily reccomend it.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
They die like normal marines, and combine that with the huge risk heroic intervention is you've got a massive waste of points.
If they come in at the right time and if they don't scatter and if the enemy is in range, they will murder them. Whoop-dee-do, now you're stuck in the open and you die like every other 16 point marine.
In the marine army I'm building (or RE-building, in the strictest sense), I'm running a squad of eight of them, no jump packs, in a land raider. I was going to run them with a chapter master, but now they're running by themselves. The sergeant will have lightning claws, and there's roughly three, maybe four power weapons in the squad. Expensive? Sure, especially with the land raider, but they are meant to be a linebreaking, "spearhead" squad that will draw fire away from more vulnerable stuff, and hopefully jump into combat with command squads, HQs, etc. I agree that with the jump packs, they don't make sense. I'd rather have a vanilla assault squad. It's cheaper and no less vulnerable, so they don't hurt as bad if they go poof.
I have had much success with 8-10 of them in a rhino with the power weapon upgraded to a thunder hammer. I just run the rhino up behind my sternguard rhinos that way if something gets close I can counter attack them with the vanguard. (turn 1 12" move stay in the rhino after that either move another 12" in the rhino, if nothing is close or get out and move your 6" on foot and then assault.) I have pedro in the list as it makes my 30 sternguard scoring but he also makes the vanguard get 45 normal attacks and 4 TH attacks off the charge.
- You must set fire to water or you will be extinguished.
Hmm.. first off thanks for all of the replies I'm pleased to hear that I am not all alone about the Vanguard..
And yea well.. Julnlecs: Terminators are great.. I love them and they are useful for many things.. It's just not the same.. I find them a pain to transport, requiring a landraider.. which makes the unit a minimum of 440 pts.. For that price you can get a squad of vanguard with a chaplain and more in a Rhino (as stayscrunchy.. said ), which is admittedly not really comparable to the mighty Landraider... The squad itself is though.. you get more than twice the wounds (and while you lose twice as many models (-1 from the chappy wound) to small arms fire, were you to face powerweaponed foes or ap1/2 you'd relatively lose less in the end.. the only problem being ap3 which is not THAT common outside Imperial Guard armies), the terminators are also going to be outnumbered.. and finally against hordes it's great having a high base attack output.. Terminators are more specialised I think..
Also while you may seemingly get more for the same value spending points in an honour guard I think there's one major issue with them.. They are all that expensive.. if their transport is broken say hello to enemy plasma.. Having a few normal vanguard in the squad you'd 'only' lose 20 pts a model..
But hmm welll.. I guess that in the end it depends on how the assault unit's going to interact with the rest of the army.. But since most of you've sounded mostly positive towards the Vanguard I'll work a bit more with them.. But I guess I'll also take a look at Sterns as an assaultunit.. I've only ever considered them using their attacks for counterattacks on charge.. Seems like a bit of ammo waste to charge them.. But then again.. There's a reason the Sternguard are so cool.. so versatile.. The main point was finding a use for the vanguard though..
As an end note.. I now realise how stupid a comparison the termies vs. vanguard was.. but dont feel like making up another.. So I'll leave it be.. Dunno what I was thinking.. Im tired.. been studying all day for an exam.. (there you got some useless info on my life, aren't you all happy? )