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Okay, big tournament comming up soon and since I recently bought and painted my 3rd LR I decided to finally feel the power of the three AV 14 vehicles menacing our foes...
The problem is this, the tournament will involve 6 battles rather than the usual 5 and hence they have decided to scale it down to 1500 points!
Here is where I start worrying,
my initial list (at 1750) would include BC, Inquisitor + Flamer unit, Inquisitor with flamer, 3 x PAGK, 3 x LR...
in 1500 I am force to play with 2 troop choices which I find VERY scary to deal as it means that in a non-capture and control or annihilation game I cannot claim more than 2 objectives!
For example at 1500 I would go with something like
BC+ Incinerator + Psychic Hood + Holocaust = 121
Inquisitor + Incinerator + Holocaust ,
3 x Veterans with Flamer
2 x Mystic
1 x hierophant
Inquisitor + Incinerator + Holocaust
2 x 7 PAGK + Incinerator + MB on Justicar
3 x LR + EA.
Total = 1499
The idea is BC+ Unit in LR 1, Inquisitor + Unit in LR 2 and Inquisitor + Retinue in LR 3.
But all this sounds just tooooo troop limited... On the other hand it means when the GK gets out to react the amount of Flamers and Templates should devastate opponents and I have managed to keep the 2 squads at a healthy size so that they can hold on their own.
The hood is there for those pesky Eldar because we have many of them in our group!
Ideas? (I am not posting this on list forum as its more for discussion of how you can play objective missions in 1500 with LR Water Warriors than the actual list I have presented)...
Why not droping on LR to keep a 3rd troop? Surely in 1500pts 2 of those monster are enough, no?
Simple, very effective 1500 Water Warrior list:
2x 6x PAGK w/2x incinerators. Justicar has MB, Targeter, Auspex
7x PAGK w/2x incinerators. Justicar has MB, Targeter, Auspex
3x Land Raider w/ EA + SL
This list is very simple and very effective. If you want to make it better vs elder/chaos, you can remove one of the MB and one PAGK and add psychic hood and sacred incense. Or just vs chaos, remove 2 auspex, and 1 MB for the sacred incense. Or just vs Elder remove 1 auspex, 3 targeters and MB for psychic hood. The targeters are mainly filler points and they are good to have too, they kinda allow you too cheat in a way by measuring distances at units and get an idea to plan for assaults by remembering how far away they are. Auspex are really good vs elder though, so it all depends on who you are facing. Depending on what you like, you could remove one of the EA and keep the auspex.
It all depends on what you like/want.
Chances are, if you are not used to playing Water Warrior grey knights, you should just stick to how you played before you found out about water warrior play style as it takes some adjustment and learning. You can't just going into a tournament cold turkey never playing it this way before and expect to do good. I am not saying you wont do good, I am just saying that if you havent really used the army for more then a month-2 months, you will probably do bad unless you have lots of practice from playing other armies similarly.
Anyways, so that is just my thoughts on the subject. Hope it all helps ya.
EDIT: a little side note.... SL > EA. I almost always get more benefit from my smoke launchers then extra armour. If you have points, I say get both. If you don't, then go with smoke launchers. But you should really make the points for both. You want to keep them as protected as possible. Some people would argue and say that smoke launchers are useless as you need to fire everyturn and you shouldn't waist a turn doing nothing. However I disagree. You don't always have a great target everyturn. Some turns you are going to have to put yourself in the open or hide yourself and wont be able to fire enough weapons to make it worth while, or your only target will be that unit of 20 conscripts in which case 1 lascannon and 1 HB wont do a whole heck of a lot. And on their turn you get penetrated. Whereas if you popped smoke, you would have only gotten glanced on your turn. Unless the tournament makes you play by fictitious rule system where by our smoke launchers act like the ones in the rule book and not our codex. In which case you still have a 50% chance to avoid getting hit at all. Still better in my opinion then taking those pot shots or having EA.
Last edited by Goblin; March 27th, 2009 at 18:18.
nop, tournament is RAW 100% (we had a big discussion about this basically and it was decided by the majority of players to go with that).
The reason why you need 3 LR's is so that all your troops are shielded... until you get out you should not have a lost a single infantry model!
I like goblins idea but I dont see the reason for the Psycannon... will the 3 shots before a charge make more difference than a heavy flamer? It always depends yes, but since the troops are relatively small (I have pretty much been a 9-10 guys minimum type of player) you want all the wounds you can get to fight them down.
As its tournament list should be for all comers so thats why I didnt add any really special equipment... I guess sacred incense can be better than psychic hood in that it stacks with Grey Knight aegis AND is a flat 4+ save... on the other hand the reason I want hood is that it can stop Fortune and Guide apart from powers done on me!
Lastly I have played with 2 LR more reactive game in the past and with good results... it is the only list I had actually beat nidzilla with... but I had termies in that one as well...
As for smoke launchers I bow to their ability... come 5th if you are lucky and plan it you can get the 4+ cover and only glancing for a round... and off course not always will you fire... there is always the crew shaken option and I would rather know I will be safer by popping smoke than just firing 1 shot.
Overall I dont know... I like the list alot and also like the idea of finnally fielding my 3 LR's... yes doing it with only mediocre playtesting is not the best plan but still...
You use the Psycannon as a nice long range base of fire. You can hold the BC at about 37-48" from your enemies and you can punk them all day long and they can't touch you thanks to Shrouding... 36" max shrouding range FTW!
Basically your going to want bodies on the table, one way or another. If your dreading having only 2 troop choices, squeeze the points out to make it so. I would venture to say that your Incenrators are a waste unless your fighting hordes. The Incenerator robs that GK of his True Grit, and thats just not kewl... besides, if this is supposed to be a Water army as the title would suggest, your not supposed to charge but, pull a shooting fall back till you must brace for the charge and still get your extra attacks in, otherwise, you lose it when charging.
My simple 1500 pt solution:
BC w/ Master-Crafted Psycannon, Psychic Hood
5 GKT w/ 2 Psycannons
Land Raider w/Smoke, Extra Armour
Land Raider w/ Smoke, Extra Armour
The BC and Termies hang back to provide a base of fire and take out infantry, light vehicles and Dread, while my LR (loaded with thier deadly cargo) roll up the field staying behind as much cover as possible to deny LOS while poking their wicked Las Cannons out to blast enemy vehicles. Once in range of Storm bolters (about 18" or so really), I disgorge them and allow my taxies to roam close by and do their thing while my GKs bring the rain and fall back. When I have to go HtH, I take the charge with saves and then give em whatfor back. Once the blood bath is over, I march up only as much as needed and do it again(depending on where the rest of my opponent is by then).
The only times I use Incenerators is for Deep Striking GKTs or PAGKs.
As for the rest, this is NOT a water warrior list in terms of what the original poster is looking for. Generally speaking a water warrior list doesn't have to include a crap load of land raiders. As number 6 has a not so water warrior list that he plays with the same tactics..
Though, in my opinion, one of the main benefits of a water warrior list is that all the models you have are safely in protective 14 armour. Rendering 90%-100% of your opponents guns completely useless. With a unit of terminators on the board, not in a land raider, you allow them to aim 90-100% of their guns at this unit and fire once they get the chance. Shrouding is cool, but imo it only saves my backon 60% of the time, after that, they are usually too close to be stopped. But that is also dependant on the army you are facing.
With all this said, generally a Water warrior army list should have a land raider for every 500pts.
The list isn't about troops or capturing objectives. If you play it properly, you usually will win. Being that you are in land raiders, moving to objectives at the end is not an issue. and this will lead to ties sometimes, but still. My point is made.
Well, now that 5th has changed the IC rules, I needed to drop him in a unit so that he just doesn't get shot up; hence the GKTs.
However, the idea behind all that, is that my firebase soaks up all the shots while my Raiders move up the field *hopefully* unnoticed.
Btw, you can't have 2 Psycannons on the GKT retinue. And I would drop the MC on the Psycannon to go for some of the options Goblin mentioned (meltabombs, targeters, auspex, etc.). I would also consider Hammerhand for BC in case I come up against dreadnoughts and some vehicles.
How can you make a water warrior list? The way of the water warrior is just that, a way. Tactics are the point not the list. Your tactics must resemble water; your list is raider spam unless you are able to grasp the tactics. Sorry, im not trying to be a jerk, i just dont understand...
---------- Post added at 02:17 ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 ----------
btw you already have a tactic in mind with your current list, that is not the way of water.
If you're truly interested in "water warrior"-ing this list, don't approach any game with your tactics firmed up. Like you, my tendency would be to footslog the GKTs (anybody who's been reading my advice knows I'm a huge fan of always footslogging all GKs and GKTs), but even that general rule shouldn't be hard and fast. Just as keeping the GKs in the raiders shouldn't necessarily be what you do. For example, when I play Orks, I ususally (not always, but usually ) keep the GKs outside so they can shoot. They can survive the Ork shooting better than the Orks can survive the GK shooting.
Remember, a "water warrior" plays reactively. Size up your opponent's capabilities and tendencies, and then adapt your playing pieces to counter them. The list you have is solid and flexible, so you can expect have decent success with it.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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