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Having been in many of the threads discussing stormies I have found so many people outraged at their cost and that they cant do what they used to be able to etc etc.
I think most people seem to be missing a few very important points.
1. Stormies are grenadiers right?
The answer to this is no.
Stormies had an upgrade (doctrine) to make them scoring, which they paid for with insertion options changing and a limit of three squads. Grenadiers were simply an upgrade.
The new codex has placed stormtroopers firmly back into their elite role which they werent being used for. The old codex just had carapace slightly better guard.
In doing this the grenadiers optiosn was no longer viable as it woudl have created a monster of an army (AP3 carapace valkyrie plasma toting zooming death I think sums it up)
The grenadiers upgrade has now been commuted to the veterans squad (which is scoring). They also swap the three unit restriction for complete 6 squad max. For this they trade only the AP, they also get the extra special weapon valkyrie option, cheaper chimera, other special rules and heavy weapons. Fair trade id say.
So grenadiers are now a seperate unit from stormies and thankfully they can still be taken.
2. OMG the price the price...
Yup they are more expensive but they get extra stuff. everyone is saying 16 pts, well thats per extra man not the initial cost of the squad (with its sarge included) so it is more like 15 pts ish.
so lets see what do you get for 5 points more...
1. AP increase to AP3, meaning you can kill all but termies without saves. yes they are still str 3 what did you want plasma guns for everyone?? This is a huge bonus if you play the unit correctly in a surgical strike, think of assault squads who dont want to go into cover...
worth about 1-2 points I'd say.
2. Deepstrike auto-included, they can then get orders to make them better and do things like outflank and get pinning. Oh yes and those extra little orders are also free.
so you used to pay 1-2 points for all of that extra stuff, now you get even more and for free. worth ooo 2 points?
3. equipment. well no-one seems to have registered that they are equipped like marines with pistol rifle and ccw. yes you may not want to assault but now you can if you want to and still fire. It means you can get stuck in combat for the enemies turn and use that power weapon to finish off the enemy, if you havnt already fried them already.
You used to have to take plasma or melta to take down marines and well you dont even have to do that now saving 20 points on the squad. (this is important here notice you save 20 points il say again 20 points saved.) or you can get those plasma or melta and do even more damage.
worth ooooo 2 point easily.
so with all of their extra stuff you get wow 5-6 points worth of extra stuff and they get ooo look a 5-6 point increase in price. That cant be right?
Well it is.
3. Zoom Zoom Zoom
Now the Valkyrie add this into the equation it makes the squad more mobile (did I forget to mention they can now give a chimera scout?) so they can get where they want without waiting for deepstrike and quickly making them truly rapid reaction. this takes advantage of their new rules and equipment to the extreme.
So in conclusion old squad with 2 plas and possibly a power weapon (lets say five man 2 plas no pwerweapon) with deepstrike 80 points
new squad with deepstrike no plas but improved equipment some outflank etc etc 80 points.
with chimera well there is a huge 30 point difference in the standard chimera loadout so
145 with scout no plas new stormie squad
168 with plas old stormie squad no scout, now drop plas and its still 3 points more expensive for the old squad.
Think of the bigger picture people stormies are just as cheap as they always were!
Thankyou for your time and I hope this helps
people had been complaining???, I hadn't noticed to be honest, but then I rarely come on LO anymore, I only use it when I can't get on heresy, and almost nobody had complained.....except space marine players, but I ignore them cus there annoying.
I know I ain't complaining, there increase seems fair enough to me for what they can now do, I know a few didn't like that there not troops now, but thats nothing to do with the codex, thats the lame pathetic 5th edition rules
The point cost migt be a bit high, but since they can seem told their own in combat compared to the rest of the guard army, minus the ogryns and havce the ability to take down an entire space marine squad, I think they are worth the points. The flexibility and overall power is amazing. Sure I won't be able to take 6 squads, but one well equipped squad could make or break the game. I'm actually more looking forward to using them on tau battlesuits.
Well, they're 85pts (17pts each) for 5, and then 16pts for each up to ten.
Yes, ST have some nice toys. ap3 guns (rifle/pistol), grenades, special rules, ect. I also think that with *careful* use they can be effective.
But at the end of the day, you are still paying a marine price for a human 16pts for a T3 4+ model.
Now you can say "but they do so good against MEQ" and this is true, ap3 guns will do that. But what about Orks? Nids? Guard?
Their role is highly specialized, they're anti MEQ, and in a "take all comer" list (in the current metagame with Orks), I don't think I can get myself to put down 100-200 points for a unit
I would rather take Vets personally. They score, they're cheaper and can take more guns.
But I will for sure try them out! Who knows, perhaps in a couple months I'll love them!
101 points (six) ST will rapid fire and kill 2.66 MEQ *out* of cover (1.33 *in* cover).
100 points (twenty) guardsmen with an order will kill 3.33 MEQ regardless of cover.
Last edited by BoxANT; April 1st, 2009 at 14:58.
I think that they have the right price for what they have and can do. But... I also think that they look like a swiss army knife with to many uses or an expensive digital videocam with to many buttons. You know the feeling... the majority of the players are not going to use more than half of what they are paying. I think that the idea is focuse in having a 1-3 reliable squad/s that can neutralize 1-3 specific targets ASAP. I think that the number, cost and equipment reflect well the fluff and looks realist.
"The only valid test is combat; the only valid result is victory"
Ardak Kumerian, Klingon Admiral.
And in answer to the question in the thread title, people are complaining because thats what people do when a new codex is on the cards.
Although I find it hilarious that people are wondering "how will Guard be beatable".
The name refers to facial hair, not playing style.Originally Posted by A news vendor's stand, London, June 1940
I think what people are complaining about is that they 16 points which is the model plus the wargear that they have that the person may not need or want to use. The people complaining seem to want the 10 points model with the options of taking the gears they want to increase the model's points.
Where the heck did all them guardsmen come from?
Great Wolf! Is that the howl of the 13th?
My only problem with the new points cost is the fluff behind it
How could a squad of humans cost the same in resources as Space Marines?
sure they are well equiped and are trained for most of their lives, but so are space marines.
Well i guess if thats my biggest complaint so far I should be happy
"Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"
I never understood the point of the grenadiers doctrine anyways, sure it's nice to have 3 squads of stormies as scoring troops but why not 4 and 1/2 or 5 normal squads instead?
Seriously carapace is pretty overrated unless you are going to use them in an assault role, and then you still will take casualties from shooting anyways, and oh yeah there is typically a super abundant amount of cover in the deep dark 41st millennium anyways so why waste some 20-30 points more per squad when your eligible for a cover save about half the time anyways?
Now for the new stormtroopers, I don't feel that they are really worth it unless the bonus Rate of Fire order can apply to them because then firing 24 hellguns and 6 plasma guns should on average totally wipe a full squad of 10 MEQ models. But since I dont plan on getting a valkyrie or a vendetta I'll probably just keep my elite choices as the ratlings and the new Psyker Battle Squad....drop enemy leadership to 2, flying str 9 template, yes please.