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Hey everyone! Warm greetings from Portugal!
Just a quick intro from "new guy on the block here":
I've been playing 40k since 3rd Ed and I started collecting a Catachans, or rather, "pure" Deathworld Veterans army. Through 4th Ed. to the day I've remained a die-hard Catachan fan, although making necessary changes to my force in order for it to be still 'legal'. Now we're faced with the 5th Ed rules and codex, so things have changed a lot for everyone. In my spare time, my current aim is to tailor my models and options accordingly, to field a fun yet competitive army.
Anyways, here's a question that I'd appreciate to see answered.
"Models armed with Hunting Lances count as Strenght 5 Initiative 5 power weapons on the first time they charge, no bonus for having extra C.C. weapon, cannot be used again". So far so good, right?
Now, if we have a unit of Rough Riders under influence of 'Furious Charge' (by having, for instance, Mogul Kamir as their leader) do they charge at Strength 6 and Initiative 6? Or does the rule for the Hunting Lances imply that S 5 I 5 is the maximum you can get?
My current interpretation is that the wording on the Hunting Lance rule is clear: the models armed with the Lances strike at S and I 5 period.
What do you guys think?
Thanks in advance,
PS - I'll be posting a "fluff-oriented" Light-Infantry Spec Ops 1500 pts list soon (much in the spirit of the pure Deathworld Veterans army I used to field 2 eds ago!)
Last edited by Ferraz Oliveira; April 22nd, 2009 at 19:05. Reason: Wrong character name: Mogul instead of Morgul
This has been discussed on dakka and (unless i am mistaken) and there was no real conclusion.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with the lances hitting at S6/I6, but the argument that the lances say "S5/I5" is also a strong one.
I feel the intention of the rule is that they would be S6/I6, that is the only real reason to take the RR special character. But until we get a FAQ ruling, it's open to interpretation.
I'd be inclined to agree with the OP. Hunting lances strike at S5/I5. Furious charge makes the Rough Riders S4/I4 on the charge, but that doesn't matter since you use hunting lances.
It just makes Mogul Kamir even more useless.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
I would be inclined to agree with ==Me==, but it does seems to make Magul to useless for them to bother making him in the first place. I hope it makes s6/i6 as it would make him partially worth it.
On a quick personal note, thanks for the replies so far guys! [now you're all thinking - man this guy and his 'persnoal notes' are annoying... ]
About Mogul Kamir, let me just say that he's not the only way of getting Rough Ridders the 'Furious Charge' USR: keep them (or any unit, for that matter) within 12" of Straken's so they bennefit from 'Cold Steel and Courage'. In a hipothetical situation where you have a few shooty units forming your "front line" under Straken's command, an effective counter-attack could be keeping a unit of R. Riders hanging back out of sight and storm if the enemy assaulters approach...
Still, it seems that we'll definitely be needing an official FAQ rulling on 'Hunting Lances and Furious Charge'...
Last edited by Ferraz Oliveira; April 22nd, 2009 at 19:05. Reason: Font size
Or give them an Order w/ Creed
I'd say that they would get S6 I6. I'm not 100% sure though.
IG Best Gen 1st overall of 10 DE 4th overall of 6
Eldar 3rd Overall/Best General of 26--2nd Overall/Best General of 7--1st Overall/Best General of 11
However, I used Straken as an example, since he can give 2 orders to other units (besides any eventual "bonus" ones from rolling double 1s) while ALL units within 12" of him gain 'F. Charge' and 'Counter Attack' automatically! Anyway, the idea was considering a more concentrated, advanced front line (possibly advancing/moving), since Straken would incorporate a Command Squad clearly inteded for C.C.
Creed has the benefit of 4 orders by default (plus eventual bonus) and 24" Command Radius which, I believe, is more useful for a larger, more spread-out "rear-guard firebase", comprised of numerous heavy weapon squads, for instance... Still, having a Rough Rider unit around to counter surprises is not a bad idea at all...
Last edited by Ferraz Oliveira; April 22nd, 2009 at 21:24. Reason: semantics error
Now I'm not looking at the new Codex as I write this but my intuition says that Mogul Kamir's Furious Charge should stack with the Hunting Lance effect to get S6/I6 on the charge.
The only other ability he grants is Rage. If Furious Charge does not stack, then a R. Riders unit with Mogul is actually worse than one with a standard sergeant. He would do nothing but take away from the tactical flexibility of the unit by forcing movement and consolidation toward the nearest enemy unit. A R. Riders unit with a standard sergeant can move and consolidate in any direction and would still receive the same S5/I5 from the lances.
If Furious Charge does not stack, then Mogul Kamir becomes, not useless, but actively harmful to your army. If however, the Furious Charge does stack with the lances, then clearly Mogul was given Furious Charge to balance out the negative effect of Rage. It makes a lot more sense that way I think.
For what it's worth I agree with bhollenb. While you could choose to assume that it doesn't stack, I think it seems more reasonable to choose to assume it does. Note that you're choosing to make an assumption either way. But clearly a special character who grants an ability that does precisely nothing is probably not what's he's intended to be.
Things normally stack unless specifically stated, and special character's rules normally override regular rules unless stated; that's why they're special. I think it seems unnecessarily sticklerish to claim that Furious Charge doesn't affect lances just because they have a listed S.