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  1. #1
    Member Wolfsheim242's Avatar
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    New Dex nice on paper...

    ...but will it be a let down in it's practical implementation?

    This is just a preemptive argument that I was wondering about over the past few months.

    After reading the rumors and seeing the misc. pages of unit types and combos, etc., I'm wondering if some of these read better on paper but in reality might only prove fluffy.

    I was looking at the new CCS structure and advisors. Now, without cover those guys are going to be a MASSIVE target.

    Imagine your CCS with advisors. Your opponent knows that you can call in an orbital bombardment, etc. and he wont let that happen.

    Chances are, he's gonna attempt to obliterate that ASAP.

    Tactically, maybe it's a good decoy, but practically, it might be too much of a hassle for us to rely on hiding places for our CCS all the time...

    Am I making sense, or is this a bit of illegitimate concern?


    I just feel that although I ADORE the new dex and it's goodies, I wonder how much of it simply reads better than it plays.

    Would I field advisors? Sure, maybe in HUGE battles where I could find a place to hide and because of the high points of the games. But in mid size games, maybe those units would be a tremendous waste.


    What say ye?




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  3. #2
    Watcher In The Sky Beardy_Wierdy's Avatar
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    Well, advisors wise at least I can say this. Against drop-marines the Officer of the Fleet is amazing. I played a game with what is known of the new codex and a Marine army dropping in but without being able to get half its army down when the other player wants to is brilliant.

    Okay I lost but that doesnt have any bearing on the fact that had I not been so interested in trying out 2 full Psyker Squads (probably a silly thing to do in 1k) I would have been able to annihilate his army one bit at a time.
    Last edited by Beardy_Wierdy; April 23rd, 2009 at 19:02.
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  4. #3
    Beep Beep Mercian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsheim242 View Post
    ...but will it be a let down in it's practical implementation?

    This is just a preemptive argument that I was wondering about over the past few months.

    After reading the rumors and seeing the misc. pages of unit types and combos, etc., I'm wondering if some of these read better on paper but in reality might only prove fluffy.

    I was looking at the new CCS structure and advisors. Now, without cover those guys are going to be a MASSIVE target.

    Imagine your CCS with advisors. Your opponent knows that you can call in an orbital bombardment, etc. and he wont let that happen.

    Chances are, he's gonna attempt to obliterate that ASAP.

    Tactically, maybe it's a good decoy, but practically, it might be too much of a hassle for us to rely on hiding places for our CCS all the time...

    Am I making sense, or is this a bit of illegitimate concern?


    I just feel that although I ADORE the new dex and it's goodies, I wonder how much of it simply reads better than it plays.

    Would I field advisors? Sure, maybe in HUGE battles where I could find a place to hide and because of the high points of the games. But in mid size games, maybe those units would be a tremendous waste.


    What say ye?


    Its not that there bad in implication its that they require new tactics and set ups to use than before. Were going to have to get the balance right as we did before, in the old dex if we took a Command Squad with 4x Plasma u can guarantee there gonna be target no1 for your enemy. You got to acheive balance and make sure all your tactical versatitily isnt invested in one unit, and that if it is you spend the money on adequate defence for the unit be it be it a tank to hide in or camo cloacks etc.

    All in all the units are great on paper, you just discover unknown weakneses when fielding them and have to make sure u devise new clever methods of covering for them or utilising them to trap the enemy into something worse.

    Mercian

  5. #4
    Junior Member Darchangel's Avatar
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    With regards to keeping them alive, if there is any army that has enough troops that the command squad can hide behind to get a cover save, it's IG.

    In the test games I've played with them, the Look Out Sir! rule has been very good at keeping the important ones alive when I could take potshots at them. They don't have to be equipped crazily in order to perform their roles, and the opponent really has to weigh their options when considering whether or not to attack a very tactical unit when they could be shooting at the Leman Russ in their face, or the Storm Troopers (unbelievably deadly, by the way.. whole squad of assault marines dead after a deep striking unit re-rolled its scatter dice and landed three inches from them..), or the veterans with three flamers in a chimera.

    Also depends on the mission--In Dawn of War deployment, it's an uphill battle against guard, and the opponent will always be struggling to take down the squads of troops smoking what little he has in fighting range, while the guard player already has three squads on each of the objectives. In Killpoints missions, it's more of a priority target because they are smaller, and seem like an easy KP.

    In the end, the goal is still forcing your opponent to make choices--do I shoot at the command squad or the russ?--and dealing with what happens. Sure the opponent knows the value of the command structure, but even without the orders, Guard is formidable. Orders make a good army better, but give them more prevalent concerns, and they won't feel they can "waste" the shots on them.
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    LO Zealot archonofdeath's Avatar
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    Right now these things are new, a lot of things are new. People are trying to work out the tactics now, but in the future the actual tactics will be developed and you'll see they will be good in game as well as on paper. This is what happens every time there are major changes. Give it time and in the mean time join the fight and try things yourself. It makes the game enjoyable.

    Right now I'm running conceptual tactics for my Blitzkrieg force and the way it seems right now I am going to have to give people tips on how to fight me, or I am going to be trapped behind terrain and won't even be able to shoot with my main tanks until it's too late, however the Valkyries allow at least a first turn destruction even if my tanks can't see anything.

    But this is what makes the game so much fun, we get to run entirely new tactics and people will probably still be coming up with themed tactics when the next new 'dex comes out in a few years. So don't just assume it will be bad in game, start coming up with ways of working it in game to make it even better than it looks on paper.
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    Junior Member Darchangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonofdeath View Post
    Right now I'm running conceptual tactics for my Blitzkrieg force...
    For the Emperor's sake, don't discount a pair (or trio) of cheap (unkitted) fast attack tanks. Even if they die easily, the Banewolf's turret is Defensive!! You can motor up and unload on people with them, and if nothing else, they're a brilliant distraction.
    "Joking, of course.. No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise."

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    LO Zealot archonofdeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darchangel View Post
    For the Emperor's sake, don't discount a pair (or trio) of cheap (unkitted) fast attack tanks. Even if they die easily, the Banewolf's turret is Defensive!! You can motor up and unload on people with them, and if nothing else, they're a brilliant distraction.
    Thats actually the post missile useage role of my Vendettas and Valkyries. I agree that they are nice but I'd probably be sacrificing a unit of Leman Russ to get them, and I kind of like the concept of 6 Leman Russ in a 1500 point list.
    A youth with his first cigar makes himself sick; a youth with his first girl makes other people sick. - Mary Wilson Little

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    Junior Member Darchangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonofdeath View Post
    ...I kind of like the concept of 6 Leman Russ in a 1500 point list.
    You're a bad man...!

    *nods approvingly*
    "Joking, of course.. No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise."

  10. #9
    LO Zealot archonofdeath's Avatar
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    Yes I am. 3 LRBTs, 3 LR Eradicators, a Valkyrie, and 2 Fury Vendettas. Then a Commissar and 2 units of Vets to fill the requirements. No one gets cover, the first turn sees 12 templates and while I may have next to no scoring units my enemy probably won't by the end of turn 2 either.

    I expect to be kicked in the shin after games and have people pack up and walk away. Thank you WWII and your sickeningly effective tactics.
    A youth with his first cigar makes himself sick; a youth with his first girl makes other people sick. - Mary Wilson Little

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    Quote Originally Posted by archonofdeath View Post
    Yes I am. 3 LRBTs, 3 LR Eradicators, a Valkyrie, and 2 Fury Vendettas. Then a Commissar and 2 units of Vets to fill the requirements. No one gets cover, the first turn sees 12 templates and while I may have next to no scoring units my enemy probably won't by the end of turn 2 either.

    I expect to be kicked in the shin after games and have people pack up and walk away. Thank you WWII and your sickeningly effective tactics.

    But that's not WWII tactics. That's just a tank force. WWII blitzkrieg means large amounts of mechanized infantry supported by tanks, not tanks supported by a pittance of infantry.

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