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I've been playing around with all the possible options, comparing costs vs effects and nº of wounds etc coming to 'designing', I think, the ultimate close combat Command Squad.
Consider the following:
Command Squad [360 pts]
2 Veterans w/ Melta guns
1 Veteran Medic w/ LP + CCW
1 Astropath w/LP + CCW
2 Bodyguards w/LP + CCW
Primaris Psyker [70 pts]
HQ #3 (does not count as FOG selection)Ministorum Priest w/ Eviscerator + Shotgun [60 pts]
Total HQ cost: 490 pts
Provided the units above are all merged into 1 squad at full strength, consider the following:
HQ combined effects:
10 models, 15 wounds, Fearless, Furious Charge, Counter-Attack, Feel no Pain, Re-roll hits in CC when charging, +1 Combat resolution score after 1st round of assault, +1 to reserves roll and re-roll dice when outflanking. KP = 3.
When shooting under 12" (moving or stationary):
1 Plasma round, 2 Melta slugs, 2-12 S6 AP5 "lightning bolts", 7 S3 AP- shots
When charging into assault (at full strength, remember, in initiative order):
Nº of attacks
4 WS 4 S4 I5 Power weapon
5 WS 5 S7 I4 Power weapon, roll +1 D6 for armour penetration
5 WS 4 S4 I4 Force weapon (power weapon if not able to use psychic power)
8 WS 4 S4 I4 normal attacks
10 WS 3 S4 I4 normal attacks
3 WS 3 S7 I1 eviscerator attacks (power weapon, roll +1 D6 for A. Pen.)
Total: 35 attacks, of which 17 ignore armour saves and 8 of these have strength 7 (remember re-rolls!)
[Kell can instead trade his 4 S4 I5 power weapon attacks for 3 S7 I1 power fist attacks]
Straken- 3+/5+ Inv.
Psyker- 5+/5+ Inv.
Priest- 5+/4+ Inv.
Kell and rest of squad: 4+
(remember all members of the squad "Feel No Pain")
A nice quirk:
Because Straken and Kell are Upgrade Charactes (NOT Independent), they're simply part of the Command Squad, which numbers 8 elements. 4 of these elements have WS3, 3 of these have WS 4, and 1 has WS 5. Since there is no majority Weapon Skill, the highest WS is used to determine the roll needed when resolving hits against the squad.
--Therefore, while the Command Squad is at full strength, enemies resolve their hits AGAINST A WEAPON SKILL OF 5! --
The Priest and Psyker do not count as part of the unit while in CC, thus targetting and being targetted separately, since they're both ICs.
Additionally, I investigated and came to the conclusion that there's no possible way of changing the 'majority unit Toughness of 3' when shooting against any IG unit (save for Ogryns and Ratlings, of course).
Some may call this 'theoryhammer' or whatever other term, and every veteran Guard player KNOWS it's insane to dump so many points on such a unit; I'm not saying I might actually field it, but it definitely gives one something to think about... Before dismissing all this as 'pointless theorising', consider carefully this unit's versatility. Please don't go into the 'opportunity cost' argument (ie. what else you could purchase with the same amount of points), since it's already established at get-go.
Note that the only "over-buffing this unit suffers" is the 're-roll Morale and Pinning tests' part of Kell's Regimental Standard, since the unit is Fearless. Still, the standard adds +1 to combat resolution score anyway. Otherwise, no other case of over-buffing occurs.
Just to hint at an actual use for this squad, imagine having it properly backed-up and disembarking, preferably not the grav-chute way) out of a Valkyire/Vendetta roughly 12" away from enemy target squad X. The squad can either go to ground under the Incoming! order, or shoot 1 plasma and 2 melta rounds (buffed by an appropriate order), after the Primaris Psyker had "Nightsrhouded" his squad inside the transport at the beginning of the movement phase, so their enemies have to take Ld test before shooting at them. (I checked the latest FAQ and psychic powers can be used on units inside vehicles provided the psyker is inside the same vehicle).
Why not Nork?
Nork *would* be great if his attacks were either Rending or ignored armour saves. With a Primaris Psyker, you get 2-12 S6 AP5 attacks, under 24"! Nork can only get 5 S6 I4 attacks, provided he charged... Besides, the Psyker has 5+ inv save, Nork only has 4+ normal. For less 10 pts than his total cost, you can get a Primaris Psyker and 2 Bodyguards for your Command Squad (4 Wounds, vs. 3 if you got Nork, 5 S4 I4 Force/power weapon attacks and 8 S4 I4 normal attacks, if Furious Charging).
Why not Yarrick?
If Yarrick had a power weapon in addition/instead of his battle klaw, things would be completely different... (I mean, if he could strike at I4, ignoring armour saves).
In any case, I'm not saying he's a bad Character - au contraire: Yarrick is the 'uberpriest', plus all his other benefits (please refer to Codex entry).
For a measly 5 pts more, you can get a Primaris Psyker, a Priest w/ Eviscerator, 2 bodyguards and 1 other advisor (ex. Astropath). That's 6 wounds compared to Yarrick's 3. In addition, you only get 1 less Power Fist attack, gain 5 Power weapon attacks and 8 normal attacks, on charging. The Emperor protects the Priest on a 4+ inv and the Psyker on a 5+ inv at all times.
Straken + Yarrick = over-buffing
Straken + Priest w/eviscerator = cheaper and better than Yarrick!
Why not a Commissar Lord?
Fist and foremost, Straken + Commissar Lord = over-buffing (except for giving Ld 10 to squads very close by and 1 point of Ld better for the Command Squad to roll orders on).
Commissar Lord vs Primaris Psyker: for 20 more pts, you could have an extra wound and Carapace Armour, but you'd lose the Psyker's abilities and Force Weapon bonus (although the latter is quasi-redundant).
Last edited by Ferraz Oliveira; April 24th, 2009 at 00:07. Reason: semantics
But I disagree about Nork and Yarick.
Nork is much stronger than two bodyguards, and he can do a lot more damage. Priests are nice, but will most likely die before they swing their evis (since they are still a 1W T3 IC character).
Not taking Yarick is just insane imo. Yarick is a complete beast. A squad with Yarick, IronHand, Nork and Kell... freaking insane
Completely overpriced and bloated in points, but fun as hell!
Fantastic with a LoL for good measure
I know, he's a beast, you're right... But I still think the overall effect of my 6 wounds is better. Even if the priest dies, he can still give the squad re-rolls (aren't Straken's attacks enough? hehe)...
About Nork I beg to differ: if you place your squad properly so as to negate cover, the Psyker can do up to 12 S 6 AP 5 attacks. And don't forget orders to buff his shooting and he can still charge ignoring armour saves!
Yarrick + Straken + Nork + Kell = complete and utter ubberness! Points difference to "my" squad: 105 in excess; wounds difference = 0; KP difference = -1; power weapon (or better) attacks on charge difference = -5; normal attacks (S4 I4) difference = -18; the Psyker's Lightning Arc possibly covers Nork's S6 attacks on charge.
Surely the 4 WS3 models are the majority, based on percentages? It's an interesting idea though; certainly gives an oppo some things to think about. The only problem I'd have is that for all their points and abilities, they're still mostly T3 5+ models, so they're hardly an "ultimate" close combat unit; they'd be sweet enough at chopping down most bog-standard Troops units, but launch it against anything remotely assaulty and you'll probably wish you hadn't.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that Fearlessness can be a bugger in close combat if you end up losing somehow, because of that silly No Retreat! rule that makes you take extra wounds. Maybe not such a big problem with the FnP, but it's a consideration.
The majority issue bugs me, since by reading the rulebook I can't ascertain whether they consider the simple majority or majority percentage. They don't elaborate much on the subject of majority ... However, if you remove the Astropath, the issue is resolved either way!
I actually thought I had made the "semantics safeguard" of saying ultimate close combat [EDIT] Command Squad, and NOT ultimate close combat unit to avoid that comment! awww...
Last edited by Ferraz Oliveira; April 24th, 2009 at 02:13. Reason: combat = command
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Tho units are so beastly i have to try them out. Apoc here I come. +rep to the guys that designed those uber combat units.
IG Best Gen 1st overall of 10 DE 4th overall of 6
Eldar 3rd Overall/Best General of 26--2nd Overall/Best General of 7--1st Overall/Best General of 11
I dare say that with a little imagination you can try them out on a 1500 pts + army! Who knows? It's so ubber it might just actually work - they are threat anyway, and your opponent still has the rest of your army to deal with. Ignore them = they do their "job" and cause SERIOUS damage; Concentrate all/most your firepower on them = you might not be able to shoot with everything you wanted, since they can be shrouded by the Psyker + you have 3 models with invulnerable saves + they act as bait to draw fire and the rest of your army does the dirty work...
Most wounds are saveable, and the vast majority aren't on FnP's exclusion list. They're still wounds, though, and thus are still worth considering.Wounds that are savable, and not on Feel No Pain's exclusion list.