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  1. #1
    Senior Member WhiteRussian's Avatar
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    Shady Game

    I came on the weekend to a new place to play 40k and played a tyranid player there.
    It could be my ignorance but I have some questions regarding the game we played, the rules he was interpreting were very shifty.
    Maybe this belongs to the rules forum, but I think as fellow witch hunters you may have some input on this game as well.

    1:
    He had a carnifex with two other guards of a lesser size in one unit. He was saying that carnifex was receiving save from the guards in front of him, and they were reciving save from gaunts in front of them.
    From what I know the squad cannot receive save from its own units, please shed some light on this.

    2:
    Dawn of War deployment says you can (not may or must) deploy two troops and one hq on the table. He was insisting that a squad of sisters in a rhino counts as two troops choices since rhino counts as a separate detachment... the rulebook says that dedicated transports do not take any space on the organization chart.
    This seemed very shady to me as well, but I let it slide.

    3:
    He had a mine bomb, the one that deep strikes as an ordance weapon. The bomb deep struck on squad of sisters that were taking cover in the ruins of their rhino. He said that they do not get any cover save since its a deep striking unit. The rulebook states that units inside area terrain always get cover... once again I felt like I was getting robbed of my models.

    4:
    Hammer of the Witches makes all psykers (including synapse creatures) to take a LD test or suffer perils of the warp. The Synapse rule tells that they can automatically pass all Morale tests that they are required to make as long as they are within the synapse excluding LD tests for psychic powers. I do not see how that protecs them from the Hammer of the Witches. Elaborate on this too if you may.


    I did not want to be all too picky since it was my first time in this gaming club, but I still want to clarify the rules so I wont feel like person just wanted to rule bend on me.

    Thanks for your input.


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  3. #2
    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    He was insisting that a squad of sisters in a rhino counts as two troops choices since rhino counts as a separate detachment...
    He was wrong, the rhino comes with the sisters.


    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    The Synapse rule tells that they can automatically pass all Morale tests that they are required to make as long as they are within the synapse excluding LD tests for psychic powers.
    Off the top of my head the synapse is auto pass on all leadership tests, not all moral tests (excluding psychic tests). Don't have the codex with me though.


    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    I did not want to be all too picky since it was my first time in this gaming club, but I still want to clarify the rules so I wont feel like person just wanted to rule bend on me.
    If in doubt ask to see the rule in writing.

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    1. Tricky, technically if the Carnifex has Tyrant Guard, which I'm not sure if they can do anymore as I don't have the nid codex to hand then they would get a cover save as the gaunts could well obscure the guard who have now turned the fex into a non-mc squad majority.

    2. This is something I noticed actually, it does seem to imply if you read the rules that dedicated transports count as a second unit, it's in the deployment rules and mentions transports specifically so i think this is correct. Dunno if there's an FAQ on this or not.

    3. If it's area terrain then yes you'd get cover i believe however if they are hiding behind a wall which the mine drops behind than as with other barrage style effects you check from blast origin to model as to whether the blast is obscured. Making clarifying terrain all the more important.

    4. Hammer of the witches works just fine, Synapse doesn't cover protection against perils of the warp tests that the hammer tiggers, just morale.
    "ask not the Eldar a question, for he will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know"

  5. #4
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    1:
    He had a carnifex with two other guards of a lesser size in one unit. He was saying that carnifex was receiving save from the guards in front of him, and they were reciving save from gaunts in front of them.
    From what I know the squad cannot receive save from its own units, please shed some light on this.
    'Fexes don't get to take Guards as a retinue, only Hive Tyrants can do that.

    2:
    Dawn of War deployment says you can (not may or must) deploy two troops and one hq on the table. He was insisting that a squad of sisters in a rhino counts as two troops choices since rhino counts as a separate detachment... the rulebook says that dedicated transports do not take any space on the organization chart.
    This seemed very shady to me as well, but I let it slide.
    It says in the BRB, and the Codex as well, that dedicated transports sit outside the FoC. I can't remember the page number in the BRB but it's on the page relating to the FoC, I'm fairly sure.

    3:
    He had a mine bomb, the one that deep strikes as an ordance weapon. The bomb deep struck on squad of sisters that were taking cover in the ruins of their rhino. He said that they do not get any cover save since its a deep striking unit. The rulebook states that units inside area terrain always get cover... once again I felt like I was getting robbed of my models.
    Erm... no BRB handy, can't really say off the top of my head. It sounds about right though. Also I don't think the ruins of a vehicle count as area terrain.

    4:
    Hammer of the Witches makes all psykers (including synapse creatures) to take a LD test or suffer perils of the warp. The Synapse rule tells that they can automatically pass all Morale tests that they are required to make as long as they are within the synapse excluding LD tests for psychic powers. I do not see how that protecs them from the Hammer of the Witches. Elaborate on this too if you may.
    This is a weird one; the Ld test HotW inflicts isn't a Psychic Test (which only inflicts a Perils attack on a certain dice-roll result), it's a straight L:d test that will result in a Perils attack if the creature fails. Synapse Creatures automatically pass Ld tests because of their special rule, and since no exceptions are made in the text of HotW (unlike in the case of, say, The Deceiver's ability which specifically says that Ld test immunities don't affect the result) then you've got to assume the Synapse would protect them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    1:
    He had a carnifex with two other guards of a lesser size in one unit. He was saying that carnifex was receiving save from the guards in front of him, and they were reciving save from gaunts in front of them.
    From what I know the squad cannot receive save from its own units, please shed some light on this.
    That might have been a Hive Tyrant with a Tyrant Guards retinue. Unfortunately, that unit is now an infantry unit (compared to a MC unit) and can benefit from cover if behind another unit... They also have a special rule called Shieldwall where the Hive tyrant can't be picked as a target when in a unit with guards. If he actually put a Carnifex with Tyrant guards, that's a problem!

    2:
    Dawn of War deployment says you can (not may or must) deploy two troops and one hq on the table. He was insisting that a squad of sisters in a rhino counts as two troops choices since rhino counts as a separate detachment... the rulebook says that dedicated transports do not take any space on the organization chart.
    This seemed very shady to me as well, but I let it slide.
    The example on page 93 under the picture does say that the Ork player deploys a troop choice and it's dedicated transport as a second troop choice. Seems weird to me, but that little text clearly demonstrates that a transport is a troop choice for DoW deployment

    3:
    He had a mine bomb, the one that deep strikes as an ordance weapon. The bomb deep struck on squad of sisters that were taking cover in the ruins of their rhino. He said that they do not get any cover save since its a deep striking unit. The rulebook states that units inside area terrain always get cover... once again I felt like I was getting robbed of my models.
    You were clearly right in this case. An ordnance blast checks from the center of the blast marker in order to determine directionality for cover saves. So lets say you were behind a wall and the marker falls behind your unit, you get no cover save. But if your unit is inside area terrain, you get one.

    4:
    Hammer of the Witches makes all psykers (including synapse creatures) to take a LD test or suffer perils of the warp. The Synapse rule tells that they can automatically pass all Morale tests that they are required to make as long as they are within the synapse excluding LD tests for psychic powers. I do not see how that protecs them from the Hammer of the Witches. Elaborate on this too if you may.
    My emphasis here. They pass all leadership test, not just morale test, except psychic tests. Unfortunately for you, Hammer of the witch calls for a leadership test to be passed.

    I did not want to be all too picky since it was my first time in this gaming club, but I still want to clarify the rules so I wont feel like person just wanted to rule bend on me.

    Thanks for your input
    .

    No problems, that's what forums are for!

    Phil
    Last edited by boreas; April 27th, 2009 at 15:07.

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    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boreas View Post
    Seems weird to me, but that little text clearly demonstrates that a transport is a troop choice for DoW deployment
    It's more than a little odd.
    At a second look it appears that troop units rather than troop choices are deployed which I guess does match with the whole 1 for the troops and 1 for the rhino thing since the transport is technically a seperate unit...

    gah, stupid rule

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    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.T. View Post
    It's more than a little odd.
    At a second look it appears that troop units rather than troop choices are deployed which I guess does match with the whole 1 for the troops and 1 for the rhino thing since the transport is technically a seperate unit...

    gah, stupid rule
    I've never noticed that before... :-o I suppose it could be argued that the transport isn't a Troops unit though; it sits outside the FoC according to the BRB.

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    Senior Member farmpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.T. View Post
    It's more than a little odd.
    At a second look it appears that troop units rather than troop choices are deployed which I guess does match with the whole 1 for the troops and 1 for the rhino thing since the transport is technically a seperate unit...

    gah, stupid rule
    I've had that one called on me before too. Unfortunately, It's true, and as far as I can tell, an accurate ruling.

    now you CAN deploy you unit, and flat out onto the board, and get into the rhino... but I usually start with most stuff off the board on Dawn of War... except for Heavy weapon retinues, which start close to cover, and move into cover.
    check out Farmpunk's blog:
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  10. #9
    jy2
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    I came on the weekend to a new place to play 40k and played a tyranid player there.
    It could be my ignorance but I have some questions regarding the game we played, the rules he was interpreting were very shifty.
    Maybe this belongs to the rules forum, but I think as fellow witch hunters you may have some input on this game as well.

    1:
    He had a carnifex with two other guards of a lesser size in one unit. He was saying that carnifex was receiving save from the guards in front of him, and they were reciving save from gaunts in front of them.
    From what I know the squad cannot receive save from its own units, please shed some light on this.
    It's not a Carnifex but a Hive Tyrant. They're the only ones who can take guards. Unfortunately, they count as 1 unit so if the guards get cover from his gaunts (which they can do), then so will his Hive Tyrant. Basically it's a unit of 3 and as long as 2 of them are in cover, they all get cover saves.
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    2:
    Dawn of War deployment says you can (not may or must) deploy two troops and one hq on the table. He was insisting that a squad of sisters in a rhino counts as two troops choices since rhino counts as a separate detachment... the rulebook says that dedicated transports do not take any space on the organization chart.
    This seemed very shady to me as well, but I let it slide.
    He is right on this one. Vehicles, though not a troop choice, counts as one only as far as deployment is concerned in DoW deployment.
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    3:
    He had a mine bomb, the one that deep strikes as an ordance weapon. The bomb deep struck on squad of sisters that were taking cover in the ruins of their rhino. He said that they do not get any cover save since its a deep striking unit. The rulebook states that units inside area terrain always get cover... once again I felt like I was getting robbed of my models.
    Depends where his mines land. In this case the rhino acts as a barrier and not an area terrain (since you cannot be in it if it is wrecked). They act as barrages so if they land in front or on top of the rhino and your troops are behind it, then you get a cover save. Otherwise you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    4:
    Hammer of the Witches makes all psykers (including synapse creatures) to take a LD test or suffer perils of the warp. The Synapse rule tells that they can automatically pass all Morale tests that they are required to make as long as they are within the synapse excluding LD tests for psychic powers. I do not see how that protecs them from the Hammer of the Witches. Elaborate on this too if you may.
    This one is a little bit tricky. Basically it can be argued both ways. HotW say that you have to take a LD test or suffer a Perils attack. Synapse says that they auto-pass any LD-based test (not just Morale), other than psychic tests. Now the question here is: is it a LD test or is it actually a psychic test (which is the only LD test where you can actually suffer a Perils of the Warp)? Hmmmm...I'd have to roll for it.

  11. #10
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jy2 View Post
    This one is a little bit tricky. Basically it can be argued both ways. HotW say that you have to take a LD test or suffer a Perils attack. Synapse says that they auto-pass any LD-based test (not just Morale), other than psychic tests. Now the question here is: is it a LD test or is it actually a psychic test (which is the only LD test where you can actually suffer a Perils of the Warp)? Hmmmm...I'd have to roll for it.
    The description of HotW actually specifies that the test inflicted is a Leadership test, so your Synapse creatures are assumed to automatically pass it.

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