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I was looking at the doctrines entry under Veterans and I was wondering what people thought of each in terms of actual competitiveness or viability. In my estimation the Grenadiers doctrine is the weakest (4+ save on a T3 model, woopee), whereas the Forward Sentries and Demolition doctrines are stronger, with perhaps FS being the best.
I was thinking of coming up with an all-vet list where every squad had Forward Sentries. I would plop all the squads in cover and rofl a bit as my opponent tries to dislodge an entire army of 3+ cover save guys. I generally tend to play a very defensive style on boards with a lot of terrain so this could be a nifty idea.
So, how would you guys rank the Vet doctrines? Have people used any of these doctrine lists to any success, such as the idea I posited above?
They're all pretty overpriced, but if I had to pick I'd go for Forward Sentries.
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IMO that 30 points is better spent on "3xGrenade launcher 1 Autocannon".
Forward Sentries is definitely my favourite out of the three (The only one I'd even think of spending money on, in fact).
If you do going with the all sentries tactic, I'd suggest upgrading one of your vet squads to harker instead of using the doctrine. He gives them stealth (Which is what camo-cloaks do now), and for the extra 25 points you get a heavy bolter unit with Relentless and Feel no Pain, as well as the squad getting infiltrate/move through cover. (In place of defensive grenades). Well worth it IMO.
I usually run my vets without any doctrine.
"The objective is to win, the point is to have fun."
I think no doctrine is probably the best.
Foreward sentries - it is ok for a decent fire support squad such as lascannon and 3 plasmaguns. You will still need other units to prevent them from being run down too quickly and at 165 points per squad they are not cheap. But if you have spent 65 points on all those juicy weapons then the cost of not boosting their saves also increases.
Grenadiers - can work against some opponents. Against grey knights or tau for example where the large volume of AP5 pulse rifles or storm bolters would rip you to shreds. But other armies with a decent amount of AP4 weapons would just laugh at the idea you spent all those points on the upgrade. Tzeentch horrors are a nightmare to grenadiers.
Demmolitions - you also need a transport. It is all down to the demmo charge to be honnest. If you pay 20 for one in a special weapon squad then you are getting the meltabombs for a point each. If your opponents have a high points cost such as plague marines, grey knights or termies then the demmo charge could be worth the cost (and the risk of a bad scatter). A special weapon squad with 3 demmo charges could be better and only costs 95 points so you loose less when theit inevitable destruction occurs.
Last edited by Mad Cat; June 3rd, 2009 at 12:48.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
Points wise its probably a really bad idea, but would Stonetooth Harker work in conjunction with the Forward Sentries ability to give a combined 2+ coversave? Could be funny if nothing else...
And yeah i agree that 4+ saves can be quite useful against plasmas and enemy fire. It also means that these guys are no longer restricted to cover and are able to get a save against most weapons whilst moving around.
@Viewmaster: I'd say no, both camo-cloaks and Harker grant them the stealth USR and I don't think you can benefit from the same rule twice.. If one of them hadn't referred to them getting stealth but just +1 cover save I would've said yes.
@Grenadiers discussion.. My problem with this is that a sole x+ save squad tends to attract all the ap x fire the enemy got.. Most enemies would aim their heavy bolters and similar stuff on your grenadiers as they 'get more' for what they kill that way.. So in the end it could result in your squad dying faster with than without the upgrade, albeit that'd mean you would have saved some weaker armored guardsmen in the proces.. Well this is just my experience with mixing the armor saves in your army anyway..
Why pay 30 points for stealth and snare mines when 55 points gets you Stealth, infiltrate, move through cover, and a model with S4 Feel no pain relentless and a heavy bolter (Harker)? FS is the worst doc. I cant really think of a situation where I would pay 30 points for it but then again my vets are always in a Valk nowadays.
Demolitions is great when it all works out right but there is a lot more kicking around to add first. Like Marbo for another 35.
I think the ability to give them carapace is the one to go with, if any. It allows you to take 1 troop and utilize them in a slightly more diverse range of situations, allowing them to be a little less tied to cover.
@Duner on FS: Because Harker happens to be unique.. So in case you want more than a single squad to benefit from an increased cover save you'll need it.. I agree with you though that Harker is much more cost efficient than the cloaks..