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While getting comments on my army list recently I was urged to drop a couple Leman russ (standard) tanks in favor of Valkyries for their troop killing power. I found this odd and would like to hear other people's opinions on the matter. Here's what I see:
1) Russ costs 20 points more (Win for Valk)
2) The multi laser versus Heavy bolter are a wash
3) Using the reasonable (and simplyfing) assumption of 6 hits per template, these are the kill counts per turn of firing:
VS MEQ, no cover: Valk 2, Russ 5
VS MEQ, 4+ cover: Valk 2, Russ 2.5
VS Ork, no cover: Valk 6, Russ 5
VS Ork, 4+ cover: Valk 3, Russ 2.5
VS IMP, no cover: Valk 8, Russ 5
VS IMP, 4+ cover: Valk 4, Russ 2.5
VS Tau, no cover: Valk 4, Russ 5
VS Tau, 4+: Valk 4, Russ 2.5
Terminators: Valk 1, Russ 0.83
Plus the Russ can pop tanks (and is GOOD at popping transports)
I see it as a near wash and probably come down on the side of the Russ because of the 5-2 kill count versus MEQ not in cover, one of those hits and you've already made back the point difference.
Ok, that's what I think, how about you? (I love Valks, I will use Valks but more for their mobility to get 1 or 2 squads where I want them rather than purely for their killing power)
Way I see it, it really comes down to four things
1). How much other armor you have in your list
- A lone valk will be shredded, but a lone russ will be a fire magnet
2). Whether you want to shell out for the models
- Valks are expensive... and hard to hide/transport/store/etc
3). What MEQ-killing power you already have
- Nothing kills marines like that insta-killing armor-busting pie plate
4). Your local metagame
- If you don't face marines, take the valk. Or the eradicator and vendetta.
I don't have any valks/vendettas, but if I were to get some, I'd probably have a valkyrie/vendetta for every 2/3 chimera/hellhound/artillery or russ.
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Well I use three russ' and two valks with pods/ML.
Obviously the russ has it down on taking out higher save infantry and for armour kill but the pods are real swarm eaters, move 12 inch unleash the pain on a swarm of gaunts with two pie plates. You can, potentially, get those hard to reach buggers hiding behind terrain.
It's hard to pick out of the two really.
Frankly I could go either way on this. Yes with the Valkyrie multiple rocket pod if your going against an opponent who uses lighter armour infantry like orks or nid swarms. Yes for the Battle Cannon if your going against heavy armoured infantry like space marines or necrons. The reasoning behind this is all in their stats. The Battle Cannon has a higher strength and AP value making it a more potent weapon. While the Valkyrie's Multiple Rocket Pod is a weaker bolter with only a strength of 4 and an AP value of 6.
The real appeal of the Valk is being a fast skimmer and carrying dudes. It's not really a comparison as both units have different roles. Valks carry guys and support them with 2 pie plates (moving 12" and firing every weapon), Russes sit back and lob the single pie.
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To analyze just the weapons its a fruitless debate as thats not how the game is played. If it were then well we would just make army lists to see who has the most big guns and that would determine the victor.
However to say that they cant be compared because they can fufill different roles is silly. Both vehicals use your avialable points and every statistic about them must be carefully considered when making a list which will include one or the other or both.
So if you need the transport capability and firepower couldnt hurt valks are a nice choice. However the russ still has the battle cannon and nothing makes a marine shake like a couple ap3 pie plates tossed at him.
I say take both.
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I usually try and find some commonality to help a topic, but this one really is apples and oranges. The choice between the two is more base on the needs of the army for a transport/fast slot or using a free heavy slot
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Comparing just the guns is just plain silly. You need to consider the entire package - what type of army you normally go up against, how much armor you already have, how much firepower you currently have, what is the role of the vehicles in your army, etc.
If you get a valk, you need to consider at least 2. One will get shot down quite easily, considering you won't get the 4+ cover if you're able to fire the rocket pods. But if your idea for them is to deliver a payload or grab last minute objectives, then they are worth considering.
Whereas, I will consider a valk for my army, IMO the LR is the mainstay of the IG army. Tough to take out, long ranged, and heavy fire support - if you don't have a couple of these babies, you don't know what you're missing. Like valks, you should take at least 2 of them in your army if you decide to use them.
I would agree with you that analyzing just the weapon is silly but under the circumstances I find it more practical. See I have been looking at cman2001's army list in which this little debate concerns. Cman2001 is looking for an infantry killing vehicle. You really have to look at cman2001's list to get the jist of what he is looking for. He doesnt need another transport since he has that already covered with the chimeras and the one Valkyrie he has in his list. He could lose one of the chimeras but then that would send him back to the drawing board with all the extra points he will have in his list. And he knows the benefits of a fast skimmer and a Leman Russ armour. What he is looking for is what weapon will will have far better impact at killing infantry. If I am mistaken Cman2001 then I am sorry that I have misinterpreted your reasoning behind this thread.
With your list in consideration I would say Valkyrie. Free space up in your Heavy Support to prevent you from squadroning.
With out taking consideration of your list I would have to say Leman Russ because not its able to produce more firepower due to the 5th edition codex.