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I originally was dismissing and slating the Valkerie/Vendetta, and tried to keep up my argument against it for some time. This was very wrong, and here is my new appraisal of it.
The Force Organisation Chart.
Both of our options, the Valkerie and Vendetta are bought in squadrons of 1-3 from the fast attack options. This does beg the question, are they even worth it at all due to how many good choices there are in the fast attack section? Let's Inspect, in order of how good I think they are (Rubbish first):
Rough Riders - very cool, and now fixed (to an extent) with frag grenades and the ability to mix hunting lances with meltaguns. However, the worst of your very good options.
Sentinals (Scout) - Outflanking walkers with a multitude of cheap weapons and can be a complete pain in the posterior to the unprepared infantry opponent. cheap too.
Sentinals (Armoured) - I am liking these alot, especially their dreadnaught like melee survivability. They also have the better weapon options (like a plasma cannon that can move before firing and doesn't overheat.) however, playtesting has revealed to me that a pair kept cheap as chips do the job best. (That's charging any infantry in range) Oh, and they have extra armour as per standard, and is not open topped.
So, in melee:
Your opponent rolls to hit you, then hits your front armour (12)
Required 6's to hit you with grenades.
that's some fairly sturdy melee capability.
There are three entries, and if you blink you'll miss just how awsome these are, as follows:
Our old favorite, Kills alot and ignores cover. Burny Goodness, but not much change. oh, placing the template is slightly changed, but it's the narrow end of the template goes within 12", and since the templates longer than 6" that's not really a loss, especially if you consider (see bottom of this section)
A melta blast weapon. Melta. That's plus one on the damage chart, and you still roll 2d6 added togeter for penetration rolls on partials (so a land raider can be penetrated on a partial) also AP1 for killing all those nasty plague marines / 2+ saves. Oh, and the cheapest option.
A STR 1 AP3, always wounding on a 2+ templates. Templates aren't small. So, in fact you put this over a marine squad, and kill them on 2+'s.
However, all of these beauties are actually delicious when you read further and realise:
1) They are all fast.
They can move up to 6" (gaining a 4+ to hit requirement in melee) and still fire all weapons.
They can move 6-12" and stil lfire one weapon and all defensive weapons (If moving 12" a 6+ requirement to hit in melee is required. Nice)
Please note, the hellhounds reduced range is actually an improvement in view of this, and - WTF! the Bane Wolf can fire It's STR1 cannon as a defensive weapon? Great.
Oh, and being able to move 18" is a great advantage for contesting those late objectives, and simply outpacing most assaulting infantry.
2) Multi-Melta's are a hull option.
I can't see any of the varients not being better with a multi melta. They all can move 12" and shoot up to 24" witha +1 on the damage table, with a STR 8 weapon. Shooting within 12" means the average penetration goes to 15. That's at +1 damage result. (50% chance of a kill on the penetration table)
Valkerie / Vendetta.
Ah, what a lovely, beautiful kit. It's also quite expensive.
Let's look at the Valkerie Weaponry Options First:
A cheap anti infantry weapon - no AP, but S6 to at least threaten most transports and have a fairly high wound rate however, not defensive. High rate of fire to compensate for your low BS.
You can also outfit your valkerie with a lascannon, at not much cost. however your low BS and one shot makes me raise an eyebrow at this. You should be looking at the rear of your opponent's of armour with this, acheiving almost automatic penetration should you hit (Bar the very toughest of targets) makes this an acceptable choice though.
S8 ordenance makes these interesting.
However the lack of blast templates, and the fact that these are one shot (with your poor, poor BS) makes these a pretty poor choice. You also can't fire anything else that turn.
Multiple Rocket Pods
S4 large blast weapons. That's a defensive weapon, to allow your nice melee saves whilst moving and since there's two of them you can inflict some serious damage / ferverent armour save rolls vs ork boys / marines.
Heavy bolter sponsoons.
Two additional heavy bolters, for the price of your commissars power sword. Poor commissar. No weapon for him.
For their cost, giving you an additional 6 shots - against infantry or the rear armour of vehicles - I see these as compulsory, not optional.
Everything is the same as a valkerie, exept:
For a nominal fee you have three twin linked lascannons. That means your Imperial guard, arriving behind the enemy can shoot better than a Space Marine's BS, (75% to hit vs 67%) with three delightfull anti tank weapons.
You could change two of these to:
S4, large blast, ignore cover, but one shot.
These would have some credibility in my eyes (not much, but some), if they weren't one shot.
Here's the question - the difference is up to 40% in cost (bare valkerie vs heavy boltered up vendetta) but what can i use them for in my army? What warrants the additional cost - surely cheaper is better?
Well, out of the two a vendetta with three twin linked lascannons wins hands down for any required anti-armour role.
Out of the two, against infantry it's trickier - assuming we eschew the one shot weapons you can have:
a bare, naked multilaser valkerie.
a multilasered rocket pod heavy bolter valkerie, (140% original cost)
a triple TwinLas heavy bolter vendetta, (150% original cost)
The multilaser valkerie will not make it's points back in kills vs infantry.
The large blast rocket pods will rip up ork mobs and similary armed infantry like no-one's business, but
Thanks to the twin linked lascannons heavier infantry lose their saves and Feel no Pain, and the vendetta is actually better vs armoured infantry. (Worked out on 5x plague marines in cover)
I'd rather take the Vendetta anyday, In fact I feel I'm obliged to with such a gift.
I've got ahead of myself, there's more to it than that.
You can cram infantry inside and zoom about.
It's fast, and a skimmer - It can go up to 24" for that late objective contest / grabbing (if troops inside)
It can chuck them out at any point - Normally, if moving flat out you can't disembark, and when you do you do so at the beginning or end of your movement.
Not so transported troops in these.
Chuck them out, and if you scatter (4/6), there's then a one in six chance you'll take a wound per model thrown out.
Not as scary as first imagined.
These men can also fire, score/contest and do their thing.
I reccommend hardened vets with flamers, meltas, shotguns and a power fist.
(You can charge if you disembark before moving the vendetta - no pivoting, p67. Just imagine - you turn up whilst outflanking, only moving 6" to shoot all three lascannons and 6 heavy bolter shots, and next turn a combat squad jumps out, shoots up a squad and charges them while the vendetta zips off, continuing to shoot stuff up.)
This means that you turn up, shoot the bejeesus out of something, and next turn anything within 15" of the rear hatch can be assaulted - You disembark up to 2" away from the hatch, move 6", shoot your assault weapons, and charge 6". Your bases are what? 1" and a bit?
Your vendetta can scoot off and shoot at other things / hang about and shoot at things.
Your Vendettas / Valkeries come with scout and deep strike.
I like scout, as it means you can outflank. That's very similar to deep striking, but without any risk and if desired you can move as fast as you want (to get that 6+ save vs melee if desired, touch that objective, or just reach most of the board.)
Last but not least for all of our fast attack options:
Why would you take any of your lovely, shiny new toys as a squadron, making them die if immobalised, and making them have to shoot at the same stuff?
1) To fit it all into the FOC
2) It's only 1x KP, and all are required to be destroyed for that KP.
2) It has it's other benefits too - you allocate the glances and penetrates.
If a non vend / valk is being considered, I'd reccommend 2's (so 1x destroyed gives no victory points in most tournaments - see the wording on "if more than 50% are destroyed award 1/2 points") I'd also highly recommend giving them smoke launchers.
After your first stun/shaken result you allocate pen/glancing hits to that tank, (How many anti tank shots does each unit have? After to hit and penetration roll it's very rarely more than 1) and then you pop smoke on it in your next turn. It becomes your fire magnet, to capitalise on the 4+ cover save. Your other tank may shoot freely, but if shot at, allocate the hit to your smoking tank.
I heartily reccommend sentinals in pairs - they're so cheap having them in 2's just makes sense, and in 5th ed you don't take additional hits should your walker(s) lose combat.
If a vend/valk is in a squadron, why put troops in both? The empty one is the fire magnet when shot at, and let's face it - if you move above 12" being immobalised is fatal anyway so the worst drawback of squadrons is fairly moot..
Last edited by stayscrunchyinmilk; June 12th, 2009 at 09:02.
I still dont like the idea of everyone playing guard just becuase we got the Vend./Valk. But your arguments for the other fast attack options were very nice.(The overview of the vend/valk was great to, but I cant be seen liking them online).
I never gave much thought to the Bane wolf and running sents, but your thread was very enlightning and I might have to play test a list with some fast attack goodness thrown in. Thank you, thank you very much.
Space Marines: W15/L7/D3
Imperial Guard: W6/L4/D0
One little note, the Melta turret for the Hellhound variant is NOT a template weapon.
Prodesse Non Nocere
Eldar - Suranii Craftworld 0/0/0
Marines - Astrum Corvus 0/0/0
Guard - 55th Estor 1/1/0
Well thought out post all around
Yes helstrikes are basically an upgraded hunter killer missile. There is no blast but they do get to roll 2D6 and pick the best for armour penetration. Unfortunately being ordnance you cannot fire anything else on that turn so that lascannon upgrade you just paid for is useless until you run out of hellstrikes.
Interestingly the thunderbolt in apocalypse has hellstrikes that are heavy 1 so the fighter can launch the lot and fire its other weapons. The lightening however has ordnance 1 hellstrikes and so cannot fire its lascannon on the same turn.
Quorn! - Protein for the Protein God.
stayscrunchyinmilk: nicely done man a very enjoyable read. I have changed of using valkries and Vedettas but with so many blooming fast attacks and Only 3 spaces i am still gonna be struggling to decided what to take!.
I wonder would valkries/vedettas be attached to a mechnized company? .