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  1. #1
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    Fluff fight ahoy!

    So I have been challenged! By a Daemon Player!

    And although I am indeed a DaemonHunter I have not faced daemons but once...

    So its gonna be relatively fluffy list from his side. I dont know exactly what but it will be an all-Tzeentch list (with DaemonPrinces though). Overall from what I have heard he has a short-range shooty list. He like the Changer of Ways to much for his own good and believes in fluffy might makes right...

    for that and only that reason I dont want to go with the 3 LR, 3 Units setup in our 1500 point game. Nor do I want to cheese it out. (Inq + Sancuary and Mystics, x 2, Purgation Squads)

    I do plan to use anti-daemon gear though since it is after all a must and rarely used fun! Probably a DaemonHammer (which if I read it right means a daemon may potentially NEVER actually get to hit back) and sacred incenses...

    I was also considering our beloved and never used special Inquisitor! Just for the fun of it!

    So overall...

    I have never played against daemons seriously and want advice on what to take and what not to take. Tactics, ideas, what should I be worried about, what should I ignore?

    Thanks in advance! Do me proud!


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  3. #2
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    The one thing I wouldn't do is take Sanctuary. That is just an automatic "I Win" button. You might as well actually play a game. Inquisitors with mystics should be fair game, however.

    If your opponent is playing pure Tzeentch, going mechanized is actually the right thing to do. Without any soul grinders, the best he can do against your raiders is glance them with Bolts of Change. (And even Soul Grinders aren't all that scary; they're only BS 3.) I doubt he can summon enough Bolts to do any serious damage to your raiders (although being AP 1, Bolts do have a chance of killing your raiders; think of the old 4th edition vehicle glancing table). If he's fielding screamers, just keep your raiders moving more than 6" and you can laugh. (They're killed very easily either at range or in assault.) The rest of his shooting will be entirely ineffective, and Tzeentch Daemons are easy pushovers in close combat. Let 'em drop, weather the shots, drive up, lay the smack down on them. Game over.

    However ... that is probably too easy, too. If you want a real challenge, go all infantry + dreadnoughts. Killing infantry with shooting is where Tzeentch daemons excel. That might make for an even -- or even uphill -- fight for you. Deploy smartly with mystics to create drop-free zones. Focus fire and try to get into assault without losing everything to those blasted horrors or thrice-damned flamers!

    The most dangerous units Tzeentch daemons can field are heralds on chariots with two shooting powers. They're accurate, super-fast, deadly, and very tough to kill unless you devote yourself to assaulting one with a full PAGK unit. Nasty, nasty pieces of work. Outside of, perhaps, fiends of slaanesh, Tzeentch heralds on chariots are one of the best bargains in the Daemons codex, if not in all of 40K.

    Greater daemons and daemon princes you should already know how to handle. Pop 'em with lascannons and missiles, don't let them get too close. Daemon codex DPs are considerably more expensive than the ones found in the CSM codex if any upgrades are taken. The more your opponent loads up, the happier you should be as that is far fewer daemons he'll be able to field.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  4. #3
    3 Getrudes Frank Fugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    If your opponent is playing pure Tzeentch, going mechanized is actually the right thing to do. Without any soul grinders, the best he can do against your raiders is glance them with Bolts of Change. (And even Soul Grinders aren't all that scary; they're only BS 3.) I doubt he can summon enough Bolts to do any serious damage to your raiders (although being AP 1, Bolts do have a chance of killing your raiders; think of the old 4th edition vehicle glancing table). If he's fielding screamers, just keep your raiders moving more than 6" and you can laugh. (They're killed very easily either at range or in assault.) The rest of his shooting will be entirely ineffective, and Tzeentch Daemons are easy pushovers in close combat. Let 'em drop, weather the shots, drive up, lay the smack down on them. Game over.
    This pretty much covers it, although there are a few other things to be aware of.

    Breath Of Chaos is a big one, and if he's expecting you to bring Land Raiders I'd prepare for quite a few of his units to have it. Screamers and DPs trying to bring your Raiders down in close combat are threats too, but as 6 says moving each turn will drastically reduce their chances of hurting your armour, and Bolt of Change is barely worth worrying about. There's nothing you can do about BoC though, except hope he rolls poorly and forgets to bring the Flamers.

    The only models in a pure Tzeentch army that get Iron Hide, and thus armour saves are the DPs, and so a smart Tzeentch player will put his units into cover before he does anything else, especially if he's anticipating psycannons or psycannon bolts, because doing so pretty much negates the advantage of those weapons. Incinerators ignore cover AND invulnerable saves so loading up on those and putting them in LRs is an idea. Simply drive them up to any Daemons in cover, hop out and Incinerate them; and best of all you don't need to worry about charging GKs through cover to assault survivors because Tzeentch Daemons suck in CC

    If your oppo knows what he's doing I wouldn't expect Tzeentchy Greater Daemons, because they're expensive and a squad of PAGKs are a fair match for them in CC. If you do see them, smile a little smile and thank the heavens that he didn't bring Heralds

    The Changeling is something I would be expecting however. He's a 5pt upgrade character that can make your units fire on each other. If you've got infantry with Psycannons this can end up costing you GKs, but if your only models are Land Raiders it's not a big deal (unless one of the LRs is a Crusader and your others are in melta range >_<). He's not a huge problem, but it's worth mentioning him.

    Pavane of Slaanesh is another trick that Tzeentch players can spring on you (The Scribes and Kairos both have it). This is basically Lash Of Submission, except The Aegis and Unguents won't protect you from it because it's not a psychic power. Again, you probably won't see either of these characters and even if you do it's not a massive threat (unless he Pavanes a Dreadnought into a DP or something) but it's worth mentioning.

    However ... that is probably too easy, too. If you want a real challenge, go all infantry + dreadnoughts. Killing infantry with shooting is where Tzeentch daemons excel. That might make for an even -- or even uphill -- fight for you. Deploy smartly with mystics to create drop-free zones. Focus fire and try to get into assault without losing everything to those blasted horrors or thrice-damned flamers!
    This isn't actually as big a challenge as you might think. Horrors on their own are singularly unimpressive unless taken in large numbers; I'd feel quite happy putting a squad of 8 PAGK stormbolters up against 10-15 Horrors in a shooting match and having my Knights walk away victorious.

    What kills you in Tzeentchy lists are the big floaty creatures who zoom around on chariots dropping AP1 templates on your Troops and then blasting your Dreads to bits with Bolt of Change in the same turn. They're a problem for most armies to deal with because their saving throws are all invulnerable. With S5+ weapons that ignore invulnerable saves this isn;t a problem for Daemonhunters. In fact, if it wasn't for the DPs, I'd just advise you to bring some Mystics, as many Psycannons as you can, and as many Heavy Bolter-carrying vehicles with Psycannon Bolts as possible (3 HB Dreads with Stormbolters are perfect), and you'd probably find his list ends up shut down so hard he'll likely throw in the towel before he gets his whole army on the board.

    The biggest thing to remember about playing competetively against Daemons is not to try and make it too complex. Psycannons, Psycannon Bolts, Land Raiders, Incinerators, NFWs, assaulting shooty units and shooting assaulty ones; all the usual gear and tactics that work against other armies will work against Daemons too, just slightly beter in some cases. Coteaz, Daemonhammers, and all the other 3rd Edition anti-Daemon stuff in the Codex... all that stuff was designed around Chaos Space Marine lists who'd bring a small contingent of Daemons with them, and as such a lot of the specialist gear in the DH armoury is distinctly overpriced and underwhelming against armies composed entirely of Daemons.

    Best thing to do is stick to what works. That, and thank your stars he's not a Khornate player with 3 Soul Grinders. They're a real problem army for anyone

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    Did this game ever get played? What happened?
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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