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I have noticed through several Imperial guard articles and postings, that units that were once the bread and butter of the imperial guard are effectively described as redundant with the new codex. Take for example the common veteran set ups of the 4th ed codex; plasma guns and lascannons, grenade launchers, etc, or the Basilisk which has also been described as redundant due to better choices. Personally, I see that our old tactics are still pretty viable with the new codex, and not every army has to be air-cav or mechanized in at least a partial way. Few people even choose the pill box squads these days, but rather unload on max veterans with meltas, and then armour for support.
Am I the only one, who thinks that are old tactics are still superior in many ways? Sure, you should implement whatever you can that is effective, such as veterans in valkyries, or various batteries of ordance. When it comes down to it, a lot of new units such as the leman russ variants, just aren't as efficient as the vanilla russ. After all, the basilisk, the work-horse of the guard back in the day, can still do everything it used to do. And to the same effect. With the use of old tactics, and implementing select few new options, it can produce the most efficent list. The mechanized armies that dominate the army-list forums seem to often be seen as the only way forwards, but I theorize that many people who are new to the guard see some army lists, than copy various elements with no real tactical understanding. In tournament settings however, I think the majority of guard players still use old school tactics like me, partially because converting their army into a whole new direction takes alot of time and cash and wasted units of 4th edition. On the other hand, we still have direct advantages over many opponents who will likely have geared themselves on to take out mechanized guard, but are met by a nasty shock to face the old guard again, especially in tournament settings. I also find our old school lists can often beat the mechanized lists very easily.
Does anyone else agree with my points that the old school list is till very efficent and viable, and we are perhaps ignoring a lot of good potential?
Last edited by Imperator100; June 29th, 2009 at 20:15.
Back in the day Guard didn't have access to specialized Russ variants and Artillery, so of course the Bassy and LRBT got lots of hours clocked in.
Old tactics don't work because we have a different Codex in a different edition with different Codices to go up against.
Last edited by ==Me==; June 29th, 2009 at 21:40.
The old tactics worked well with the old missions. With the new missions where kill points and objectives means we can't just sit back. Also the much cheaper chimera makes it a much more efficient choice even if you never plan to get into the thing, its still a good tank/firing platform.
The basilisk is a good all rounder, being able to take on both tanks and heavy infantry. Same as the battle tank. The other variants of artillery and leman russ's allow for more efficient choices. It doesn't mean that either one of them are bad choices, but if you know that your gaming area receives the attention of a lot of mech lists or such a hydra or exterminator will be better suited at popping transports than a battle tank. Or if you know that there are a few players in your area that like to run 4+ land raiders a couple of medusas, vanquishers or mounted melta vets would suit.
The new guard codex allows for ultimate versitilty because there are so many units in it that can do the same thing but in a different package. It allows for all the new exciting lists or for the old standard gun lines
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Yeah, people are tailoring their lists to be most effective in the current meta game, which means that mech is king. I'd say if you want to stick with your old guard do it, for the following reason:
If you tailor your list for the tourney meta game rather than balanced/themed, eventually the meta game will change. Once mech guard is the standard (which is quickly happening), opponents will have builds reflecting their need to fight mech guard. If you have all infantry or something, and you've slowly been practicing with them for years, you may find yourself suddenly able to easily defeat most of the opponents you meet because they are chocked up on anti-tank weaponry. Then all infantry will be king for a bit, then it will see-saw back , etc.
Tailoring your list to be the best at beating other commonly seen lists (meta gaming) will probably make you win more often, but you'll be playing a reactive game right from the very start with your army comp. And when things swing back/in a totally opposite direction/there's an edition change/there's a new codex you'll have to buy a buttload of infantrymen (or whatever) to face the new meta game. So if you're in for the long haul, get whatever list you think is cool and accept the fact that whether you win or lose will be completely in the hands of fate and your own experience with your army. Learn your army inside out and try to win that way.
I know this is not a particularly popular viewpoint, and I am all for meta-gaming if that's what you love (I'm not going to tell anyone how to play their game), but I'm just giving another perspective for what it's worth.
I think that some tactics, however good, start to be less useful because opponents prepare for them. Players expect to see IG gunlines with bassies etc and so you get to see armies which have been equipped to deal with those things.
I think a lot of the lists you are seeing thrown around at the moment are a direct result of the excitement about new choices offered by the codex. It will all calm down in a few months time.
I just got the new Codex recently and haven't had the opportunity to play with it yet (we play very infrequently) but I don't plan on abandoning my old tactics, but rather mixing them with the new. I will have some mechanized infantry squads supported by a reasonable gunline and armored support. The mech squads will be my primary scoring units while using the support to keep them safe or clear objectives for them to take.
I actually always wanted to make a hybrid force like this since I use a mixture of Cadian and Praetorian models. I will use my Cadians as an infantry regiment mixed with a support of a Praetorian armored regiment. So my Praetorians will usually be used as Veterans whereas my Cadians will be standards Infantry Squads. My chimeras and other tanks will most likely be painted with Praetorian markings and a desert camo as well, as part of the armored regiment. They also give a great opportunity to use as Captain Al'rahem (being desert themed) without having to buy new models
I only have a small guard list that I made when I was waiting for the new codex so it is built up to function on the old codex. Since the 5th came out all I have added to my list is a valk and advisers. If you are looking for a force that wins the most often then I think you have to go the mech way. But My standard list with rather modest 5th ed upgrades is a lot more effective than it used to be. The orders system is an awesome improvement to my old infantry platoons. But as for the old tactics I think you have to throw them out. If you keep a similar list as before but play it a little differently I think you can still have a lot of fun and competitive games, as long as this isnt for anything that counts.
IG Best Gen 1st overall of 10 DE 4th overall of 6
Eldar 3rd Overall/Best General of 26--2nd Overall/Best General of 7--1st Overall/Best General of 11
I know it's kind of ==Your== thing, but if you're going to give advice maybe help us out with a little more than one sentence.
EDIT: OK that was a little harsh, so perhaps I should explain where I'm coming from. I don't know how experienced a player the OP is (he's been playing since 4E at least), but I've been playing since the days of the squats and zoats. One thing i can tell you for sure is that what makes a killer list changes all the time, but an effective workhorse list doesn't change all that much. A bunch of infantry, a couple of russes and some basilisks in 1500 is always a pretty good bet. You won't win all the time, but you'll be a challenge to most players.
Experienced players often have large model collections and can afford to muck around metagaming. What I get worried about is when I see new players coming on a forum and everyone tells them to get a bunch of mech vets, valks and melta spam. Sure, you'll probably win a lot right now with a list like that, but when (not if) things change it'll most likely be a pretty fragile list, and you'll have to get a whole bunch of new models to stay competitive.
A more balanced list in keeping with traditional guard themes is, I think, the best starting point. Let's face it, GW makes new codices based on their fictional background, not metagaming strategy. There always have been and always will be guardsmen and russes. If you have 70 guardsmen and a few russes, and a decent amount of experience wielding them, you're a threat to anyone and you always will be. I don't think experienced players should be sending the message not to collect them just because mech melta spam is king ATM.
Sorry about the big post I just get a bit riled up about this for some reason.
Last edited by Kahoolin; July 1st, 2009 at 03:57.