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I have been considering starting an inquistion army with focus on the grey knights. I will probably include IG allies. I am choosing the army more for the modelling aspect rather than competetiveness, though I would like to win games. I have been playing 40K for close to four years now so I know enough about how to play, what works and what doesn't, etc. There will no be storm troopers, termies or dreadnoughts for me; I just don't like 'em.
The topics I want to ask about are:
Do I really need special weapons on my grey knights squads? Psycannons aren't a possibility for me because I would try to always stay mobile, and as close to 24 inches as possible to maximise The Shrouding and avoid fast assault units. For the same price I could get another grey knight, which seems like a way better deal.
So that leaves incinerators. I might include them but as I said I will be trying to stay at 22-24 inches away from the closest enemy unit. So I am wondering, is a grey knights squad with no upgrades a reasonable option? Maybe a targeter on my justicar if I have spare points.
I am having trouble choosing my HQ. None of them seem worth it to me. At the moment I'm leaning towards the inquisitor because of the modelling possibilities. Is it a bad idea to run an inquisitor without a retinue?
Are land raiders absolutely necessary? I think I could use IG allies for tank hunting while my grey knights footslog.
Any thoughts on those topics will be appreciated.
PS: Yes I have read "The Way of the Water Warrior".
However, I do like to equip my Gk's with Incinerators. That is because I usually play mechanized with GK's in LR's. 1 squad w/inquisitor, the other with BC or GM and both with 3 incinerators each. Not much will survive 3 incinies, stormbolter spam, and then an assault from my knights.
But if you just want to stay within 22-24", just stick with stormbolters. Though you still need to give them cover against high-powered shots since the average distance for shrouding is 27". You will also have problems against mechanized assault opponents unless you can get them out of their transports.If you use an Inquisitor Lord, you are required to take a retinue of 3-12. Elite Inq's do not have to take a retinue.I am having trouble choosing my HQ. None of them seem worth it to me. At the moment I'm leaning towards the inquisitor because of the modelling possibilities. Is it a bad idea to run an inquisitor without a retinue?
Keep in mind that in order to take Grey Knight Dreads or Grey Knight Land Raiders, you need to have a Grey Knight Hero (BC or GM).
The GKGM is awesome. One of the best HQ's in 40K. Why, you may ask? It's because of his outdated but very powerful NFW. Unlike the normal force weapons in the 40k rulebook, if you play by RAW, his NFW doesn't cause Instant Death...it slays outright, thus bypassing the Eternal Warrior rule. Yes, one unsaved wound from his NFW will kill Marneus, Abaddon, hive tyrants, bloodthirsters...even a Necron C'tan! Of course, be prepared because your opponent will cry foul!No, the LR is not necessary (and I'm talking about GKLR's, not the the dedicated LR's the Inq+retinue gets). But it is the DH's best anti-tank and the only transport for your GK's. If you haven't tried out their Power of the Machine Spirit, you don't know what you're missing. Always being able to fire a TL-lascannon at regular BS even if stunned or moving 12" is awesome. Not to mention that in lower point games (1750 or less), many opponents have trouble handling a Land Raider, not to mention 2-3.Are land raiders absolutely necessary? I think I could use IG allies for tank hunting while my grey knights footslog.
Any thoughts on those topics will be appreciated.
PS: Yes I have read "The Way of the Water Warrior".
Before, I've always thought of LR's as big point sinks. You can almost get a whole squad of GK's for the price of one. But after I tried them out, now I can't live without my LR's. It probably does for the Grey Knights what the Monolith does for Necrons. Most of the successful Grey Knight players that I've seen and heard about use multiple LR's.
Just as an aside, the most effective way to run footslogging GKs is as a cover-camping firebase squad, which means 2 Psycannons and at least 7 models (6 Knights and a Justicar). They benefit a lot more from cover than most things do (or at least they did, until everyone started getting free Frag Grenades), and sitting 30" away from the fray popping Psycannon bolts into it is the best way to maximise The Shrouding's benefit; closing in with stuff just strips it away until, before you know it, you're 18" away from a Plasma Cannon and getting pounded every turn.
Which leads on to the next point about Grey Knights; they can't absorb casualties well. Sure they're Fearless and so in that respect they're fine, but they're also extremely expensive and as such will be weakened by the loss of each model.I'd have to say no, not footslogging anyway. Dumping a vanilla GK squad out of a Land Raider is fine; it's good in fact, because although they have less firepower they have more S6 attacks, and since you'll probably be dumping them straight into CC that's no bad thing. Having a vanilla GK squad running around on it's own can cause you all sorts of problems, not least because, when all's said and done, they're still just Tactical Marines with a few extra abilities and are thus just as susceptible to plasma, torrenting and everything else that wipes out Tac Squads.So that leaves incinerators. I might include them but as I said I will be trying to stay at 22-24 inches away from the closest enemy unit. So I am wondering, is a grey knights squad with no upgrades a reasonable option? Maybe a targeter on my justicar if I have spare points.If you're talking about an Inquisitor Lord you CAN'T run him without a retinue, and if you could it would be a bad idea. Henchmen, in addition to providing nifty little tidbits to your army, also boost the Lord's stat-line, and can effectively turn him into something of a powerhouse.I am having trouble choosing my HQ. None of them seem worth it to me. At the moment I'm leaning towards the inquisitor because of the modelling possibilities. Is it a bad idea to run an inquisitor without a retinue?
Just remember that, for your Inquisitor Lord to be effective, he needs wargear; and in an army as small as a Daemonhunters army will be there really isn't any room for naked units who are just there because they have to be. Everything you put on the board needs to be able to pull it's weight. He has no weapons for a start, so he needs at least a 2pt bolter before he can even make a ranged attack, and since he is required to take at least 3 Henchmen you'll soon find that your Lord will quickly become a more expensive option than a Brother-Captain; in fact, it's not difficult to make your Lord retinue more expensive than a Grandmaster retinue would be if you're not careful.
The other thing to remember is that, without a Grey Knight Hero, you can't take Land Raiders, Crusaders or Dreadnoughts. For that alone the Brother-Captain has to be worth his cost.Yes. If you're taking DH as your primary army they're absolutely essential, I'd say. For starters your GKs can't ride in any home-Codex transports, and whilst they CAN steal any Chimeras you bring in with the IG that means you'd have to kit your Platoons out to work as a gun-line, and if you're thinking about taking your GKs in any sort of numbers there's just no way to get enough models or guns on the table for it to work.Are land raiders absolutely necessary? I think I could use IG allies for tank hunting while my grey knights footslog.
Another thing to consider is that, outside the Ard Boyz tournament thingy, the only Guard Heavy Support option you can have is a single Leman Russ Battle Tank (that's the ordinary variant with the Battlecannon). While a single LRBT can be tooled up to be a bit of a monster, it's never going to carry your army's AT needs on it's own. Dreads are a bad idea too, purely because the DH lack anti-armour weapons to such an extent that you pretty much need the Land Raider's Machine Spirit just to put out a reasonable number of high-strength shots each turn. Sentinels can provide a useful supplement to your HS choices, but again you only get a single squad of those so they'll never be enough to carry you, and if you're running Grey Knights in numbers then trying to rely on Guard Infantry for your melta needs is awkward. It's also a bad idea, since without Company Command Squads your Platoons are missing stuff like GBITF! and BiD!, which means they ain't operating at full effectiveness anyway.
I'd say LRs and Crusaders are far more important to Daemonhunters, especially lists that include Grey Knights, than Monoliths are to the Necrons; even with a Lith on the table the Crons struggle to kill vehicles, but the addition of a couple of TLLCs and a Multimelta (not to mention the AV14 hulls >_<) to any Grey Knights list will drastically improve it's effectiveness... if only because it allows them to quickly close with and hammer AV10 rear armour with their NFWs
Lots of salient advice that doesn't really need repeating.
But I will say that mixing and matching special weapons on GK units is a real NO-NO, and also that when you select special weapons -- be they psycannons or incinerators -- be certain you are doing so because you are dedicating your GKs to a particular task. Take 1-2 incinerators on GK units you're mounting in land raiders, but otherwise not at all. Take 2 psycannons on PAGK units because you want a home-objective firebase dakka unit, but otherwise not at all.
And in all cases, a vanilla GK unit -- no special weapons -- will be appropriate no matter where you put them: on an objective, in a land raider, footslogging. Vanilla is the only suitable build for a mobile footslogging unit.
Beyond that, I always like to direct new GK players to what I feel are the best two tacticas written on the subject.
* So you wanna play pure Grey Knights?
* The way of the water warrior
The first is actually a distillation of the second, and so is where I think is a great starting point. "The way of the water warrior" is, however, the grandaddy of all 40K tacticas. Deep and insightful, definitely worth your time.
I will add that while I have had lots of historical success playing footslogging GKs anchored by 3 dreadnoughts for my heavy support (and allied Seraphim for that little something extra), it's significantly more competitive to play mechanized in 5th edition games. My old footslogger GK lists can still do OK, but it's a real struggle sometimes. Mechanized GKs are significantly more potent.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
Thanks for the replies. I have a lot to think about now.
I hadn't read the allies section of the codex enough. I didn't realize that I couldn't take a psyker battle squad in a daemonhunters army. Basically the choice comes down to land raiders or IG allies.
I have read both of those tacticas number6. "The Way of the Water Warrior" is great but I disagree with the four elements idea.
I now have two choices:
I could use an Imperial Guard army with PBS, command squad, and 2 veteran squads all in chimeras. Daemonhunter allies would be 2 footslogging GK squads and a callidus assassin totalling up to around 1250 (which is the points level I usually play at). I like the modelling aspect of this army more than the pure GK army. The callidus + PBS trick will be really nasty.OR
I could play pure GK water warrior style. This would probably be the cheaper option money-wise because I have a friend who's selling a mostly painted GK army with a grand master, 4 termies, 3 LRs, and about 10 GKs. This army seems more fun to play.
I'll be posting my lists in the army lists section.
Thanks again for all the help.
One thing to keep in mind is that in order for you to field an assassin, you need to have an inquisitor. If you play IG as the parent army, you can only field 1 elite ally. Thus, to take an assassin as an ally, you would need to take a HQ Inquisitor Lord ally.