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Okay, I was reading my guard codex and I was noticing something that did not make much since with the Bane Wolf. Why does the Chem Cannon have such a high AP value, but no ability to actually hurt a tank at all.
Now that I am thinking about it, how does the Hellgun do it also? Neither one makes any sense on how they can pierce a suit of Power Armor, but do absolute nothing to a tank.
Now I can see them saying that the gas finds the smallest crack in the armor and the smallest little bit is lethal, but the same would be to the crew in a tank, let alone an open toped one.
For the Hellgun, the only justification I can see is that it fires a stronger tighter beam that pierces armor better but is effectively the same strength because it is hitting a smaller overall area.
But nothing comes to mind why neither would not have any vehicle armor penetration.
Now I am not looking for any "Don't try and make logical arguments into game terms" responses, just some creative ideas on why the weapons would work that way and make sense in game terms.
Last edited by Fosner1703; July 8th, 2009 at 15:40.
There are pistols and rifles out there that will punch right through body armor, but good luck doing anything to even a humm vee just by shooting a pistol shot at it, of any caliber. There's no way to reflect the one in a million odds of hitting ... a driver or something in the heat of battle.
That pretty much covers the hellgun issue.
As for the chem cannon ... similar things apply. It fires a spew of organic material dissolving gas so a vehicle moving around and such, even open topped, it's going to be materially impractical to spew acid gas into all its little cracks and crevices.
You can come up with a reason why a grot blasta could kill a land raider if you really wanted ... why can't all weapons in the game have a one in a million chance on like 3 6's in a row to kill tanks due to the "lucky shot" rule, anyway? It's a game, yakno? Trying to force the fluff to match it is impossible, b/c any argument can be made on "fluff" reasons. It's the Hitchhiker's approach to life ... you're in a fantasy world. Come up with whatever explanation helps you sleep at night ... the game terms are fixed, the fluff isn't.
Last edited by MVBrandt; July 8th, 2009 at 16:08.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
In regards to the hotshots, they could have enough power to say penetrate a few inches of very thick armor but the energy dissipates too quickly to affect thicker armor plating found on vehicles. Similarly vehicles stronger respiratory systems might filter or block the chemical agents of the chem cannon better than an individual's respirator.
Last edited by Darguth; July 8th, 2009 at 16:05.
My main issue is almost everyother weapon that has a low AP has an ability to at least glance a light vehicle, but neither one of these do.
*Cringe* Here comes the list of weapons I can't think of while I am at work without my library.
But being in the Army and being in a lot of equipment briefings, I have a basic knowledge of armor and modern weapon penetration. But my issue is, a suit of power armor is supposed to be comparable to an M1 Abrams armor fluff wise, about as good as an uparmored humvee game wise. So modern day armor is about as comparable to Guardsman Flak armor, being a 5+ save. Obviously any armor penetrating rounds will go through modern day armor.
I did not think of that about the better respitory systems in a vehicle and solves that fluff issue in my head, thank you. And combining your tidbit on the hellgun and my idea of how it works with the tighter beam solves that issue in my head too. Thank you again.
That's basically what it comes down to, sure power armor is ridiculously good by modern standards, but the vehicle armor will have scaled relatively the same as modern day most likely.
Not arguing that point Darguth, I was jsut wondering why it would have AP but not hurt a light vehicle at all and you helped me solve both of those issues.
Only issue i have is that your explaination of the respirators is that would not work with Open Topped Vics.
Last edited by Fosner1703; July 8th, 2009 at 16:33. Reason: Mispelled his name
Magic did it. Don't forget we're talking about a game where orks lean out the windows of their spaceships to shoot at things.
There are no constraints on how you justify fluff. Here are a few trivial ideas:
-A few tons of tank has an intimidating thermal mass. The energy is dissipated too fast.
-Vehicles have reflective/ablative/made-up armor (paint) that ruins the focus of weak lasers. Terminator armor has these defences as well, but power armor doesn't because no one knows what the heck they're doing anymore in the manufactoriums.
-Vehicles (like terminator armor) have a more sophisticated rebreather system that is too big to mount in a powerarmor helmet. (or powerarmor only seals around the head)
-Thicker plating won't be eaten away over the timeframe of a normal game. After the battle the crews can throw sand/soda/magic on the damaged surfaces.
-Even though magic intervenes to allow the chemcannon to work well on troops, reality reasserts itself for vehicles and points out that spraying acid at people is a borderline ridiculous weapon.
The real reason is of course that strength and AP are uncoupled in 40k for balance reasons.
You can always point out contradictions, it's fantasy. The only issue is how much disbelief you're willing to suspend. I'm not immune, I've taken to calling the chemcannon a Plasma-flamer (and modeled it that way). It doesn't mean anything, but there are a couple of cogs in my head that grind otherwise.
It's not personal, I'm just like that.
I figure that the open topped vehicle spends such a short time in the contaminated area (moving fast and such), that the worst effect it will have on the crew, is an annoying rash on any exposed areas of flesh.
What I mean is that the infantry are a quite slow moving target, while the open topped vehicle moves at such speed, that the gas (or chemical, whatever) simply haven't got enough time to damage the crew, before a) they're out of the dangerzone and b) the small amounts that did hit them, will quickly dissipate, because of the wind (since it's open topped)
Of course the vehicle will have had to move, for this argument to be valid.
If the hellguns do their damage through more exotic wavelengths (i.e., use hard radiation instead of visible light) then they would do severe damage to biological targets while being no more effective against metals and ceramics than the lasgun.
As for the chemcannon, unless it's a seriously caustic substance it won't damage any waterproofed vehicle in as short a time frame as a skirmish. I can think of several nasty substances--white phosphorus, sulfuric acid and maybe some animal-derived toxins--that would instantly do bad things to a heavily armored guy while taking a much longer time to do anything to a plate of metal. (Before anybody mentions fluff, by 'seriously caustic' I mean 'counts as plasma cannon' caustic.)
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard