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I'm taking a break from my Necrons and going back to my Guard now that I have the new codex read.
I've put together a couple of lists, but I figured, instead of asking for comments on my list, why not just ask people to debate the perfect 1,500pt list?
What do you feel is key for just a normal 1,500pt army list? And what is worth taking, and what is worth dropping?
There is definitely no perfect list, but I think a great 1500pt list should definitely have at least several Chimeras, at least 3 squads of Veterans with Special Weapons , Vendettas and at least 2 Leman Russes. IMO Mech owns Static anyday, especially given a good commander.
The most competitive army will be extremely flexible (tactically), as in you are able to apply a range of different tactics to the battle given what you have at hand.
<PLUG> Here's an example of perfection might look like </PLUG>
Last edited by phr0z3n; July 10th, 2009 at 13:45.
Hmmm... Tough question!
1. At least one full Infantry Platoon on foot receiving orders from a CCS. The squads absolutely need Heavy weapons, but you can probably do without Special weapons.
2. At least two Leman Russ variants.
3. At least two pieces of Fast Attack armor in the form of Hell-Hound variants or Vendettas (I would pass on Valykries and/or Sentinels).
4. 2-3 Chimera mechanized units, not necessarily Veterans (IMO, the Veteran hype on this forum is a bit over the top as Mechanized Infantry squads can do what Vetrans are supposed to do, which is to capture and contest objectives, for significantly cheaper once you add up the costs of Special weapons).
Not To Take:
1. Any of the Elite choices.
2. Artillery (At 1500 points stick to Battle Tanks)
4. Special Characters (Too expensive)
Last edited by counterwavecounter; July 10th, 2009 at 11:16.
"The man in the bowler hat is Mr. Average in his anonymity. I, too, wear one; I have no great desire to stand out from the masses." - Rene Magritte
Indeed, it is a tough question...
In a 1500pts list it normally take at least 55 models (discounting tanks), gives me enough units to play with, and be able to loose say 66% of my line squads and still have enough manpower to put up a fight.
Secondly I would make sure you have plenty of ap 2 and ap 3 weapons- you dont want to get overrun by powerarmoured units!
Thirdly- stock up on hard hitting units. Russes and variants, have at least 2 battle tanks.
Finally, I have to disagree with a pointr made above, I totally see the value of taking a bassie in a 1500pts list, I can never see the end of the value of the ability to place a s9ap3 pie plate ANYWHERE on the field...
Force your opponenet to cling to cover, and then when a foolhardy unit dartes from its cover you can land that bassie shell on them, yes you may scatter and miss totally, but you may get a direct hit and even luckier- wipe the unit out entirely...
I would go for a mech build, lots of tanks, lots of melta, lots of pie plates.
CCS-2 meltas, Chimera, Fleet Officer or Astro
3x Vet Squads-3 meltas, Chimera
2x IST squads-2 meltas
2x Demolishers, hull heavy flamer
1500, lots of armor, lots of guns, lots of pie plates, lots of melta
It's not perfect (there isn't one), but very nasty.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
There's no such thing as perfect ... Me is getting more at it ...
You want to basically make sure you have three things:
2) Reliable anti-tank
3) Reliable anti-infantry
In today's world, if you really want to go with optimal, here's how you *generally* do it with IG
1) Durability - choose between ...
a) Large guard squads that can mob up with commissar support and cheap heavy/special weapons, generally focused on anti-infantry and anti-transport/light vehicle
b) Vet squads or guard squads in chimera or valkyrie transports for protection
2) Reliable anti-tank - choose between ...
a) Meltavet spam is probably your best reliable bet ... mounted in valks or chimeras, they've got a high probability to put orderable (for twin-link or rr cover save) BS4 meltaguns within 6" of critical targets like land raiders
b) Vendettas ... lascannons are not statistically fantastic at killing heavy armor, with a very low % chance per at BS4, but add a squadron with 9 of them twin-linked and you're lookin' a whole lot prettier in a hurry ... kind of an expensive route compared to meltavets, with less capacity to target different things reliably ... you really need 3 in a squadron to "ensure" an AV14 kill or get close to sure, and then 390 points are targetting at most 1 thing / turn ... meltavets are more flexible, score, etc.
c) There are other options, but I think the top two are the "best" ... lascannon spam on guardsmen isn't reliable for heavy tank killing, and you're better off going cheap on autocannons/etc. to take out all the transports and such (which hydraflaks and other cheap things can also do reliably) ... and leave some points for hardened anti-tank killing focus units like meltavets in chims or valks, and vendetta squadrons
Basically think of reliable anti-tank as lots of cheap stuff that can kill AV10-12, and then a few very focused, very reliable AV13/14 killers ... most people won't have TOO much of taht, so if you want a more varied list you can still find room for those 3-4 meltasquads in chimeras that you basically just task with killing your opponent's land raiders, ironclads, soulgrinders, etc.
3) Reliable Anti-Infantry ... one main point
- BULLETS. Anyone who claims Plasma and AP2/3 are reliable anti-infantry weapons is nutso ... they're too expensive compared to lasguns, heavy bolters, autocannons, multiple rocket pods, etc. .... the enemy of all infantry is low to mid strength volume fire ... this is coincidentally also the cheapest thing to acquire easily in a guard army, which gives you the beautiful situation of ...
a) not caring if your opponent has cover ... leaving you ever careless of what he does, you should never build an army that your opponent can "play well" to beat more easily ... i.e. if you spend too many points on low ap weaponry and plasma and the like, your opponent can play well or target properly and make life easier on himself ... don't build a list that lets him take that opportunity; just throw down so many bullets that whether he's a terminator with storm shield or a tyranid gaunt in the open, he's going to fail saves and pick up models every turn, and you'll have nothing he can target to just instantly drastically reduce your anti-infantry capacity
b) You get lots and lots and lots of bullets ... guard armies spend out the wazoo for plasma and the like, and use up valuable force chart selections for dedicated anti-meq or anti-cover whatever bs.
Basically, get either LOTS of guys with morale support or ELITE guys sitting in vehicles (read: chimera or valk vets). Then, make sure you have some reliable dedicated anti-tank. Then, make sure you spend every other point on bodies (or vehicles) and bullets.
There are so many ways to build a list that accomplishes that at 1500 points for the guard, what's really important is making sure you have those three things. The rest is more a practice of your preference within those guidelines. Be durable, be ensured of a capability to kill heavy tanks, and be ensured of a capability to put lots of armor saves on any infantry army you run up against.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
The key to playing a game successfully, is to play it in a way you find fun. Therefore key units to include are the ones you have fun playing with, and the ones worth dropping are the ones you don't enjoy playing with.
For instance, I love the MoO even with his ineffectiveness. The fluff behind it makes me happy every time I even think about it, let alone drop the actual pie plate in a game. Hence, I'll often be likely to include him even if points would statistically and tactically be better spent elsewhere.
Similarly I don't really like the PBS lore-wise. Sure the IG does employ sanctioned psykers in battle, but they are uncommon and troops generally mistrust them. Therefore when I see lists with 2-3 of these squads in them, I cringe. So although I'll still use them when I want to shake up my list and hand out modifiers with pinning or whatnot I'll include them. But that will be much more rare, even if they are an excellent squad mechanically in game terms.
Winning is a lot of fun, but there is a lot of fun to be had in a game even if you don't win
I think a medium vehicle list would do pretty well.
Vets 3 meltas chimera stubber
Vets 3 meltas chimera stubber
Vets 3 plasmas chimera stubber
Vets 3 plasmas chimera stubber
Vendetta HB door gunners
Vendetta HB door gunners
* all vehicles have hull heavy flamers
12 medium sized vehicles, 6 meltaguns, 6 twin-linked lascannons, 8 twin-linked hydra autocaannons, 2 ordance blasts 1500 points exactly.
IG Best Gen 1st overall of 10 DE 4th overall of 6
Eldar 3rd Overall/Best General of 26--2nd Overall/Best General of 7--1st Overall/Best General of 11
The perfect list....hmmmm.
I would say it is any list that I make.
Everyone here has some good suggestions. Balance is the key. Unfortunately, balance doesn't always work. If you're playing fast eldar or a biker list, you better be able to shoot them down really fast or they'll be in your face on turn 2. If you're playing nidzilla, you aren't going to do too well with tanks as each blast will probably only hit 1 monstrous creature. You better load up on a lot of heavy weapons...missile launchers, plasma and lascannons. If you're playing a drop podding marine list, you better get inquisitor allies. Basically, the perfect list varies from enemy to enemy. A balanced guard list can handle a lot of different army builds, but will easily get overwhelmed by some.
In short, there are good lists, but there is no perfect list...unless you're talking about mine.