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I'm pretty new to warhammer and have been thinking about this for a while but would like to know if everyone has realized this and just accepted it or if I am missing something.
It seems to me that a complex unit has a huge advantage over regular units when taking saving throws.
As per the rules on page 25 of the rulebook it says that wounds in a complex unit have to be allocated. Now take a typical Guardsmen squad with 7 guardsmen and a sergeant, a grenade launcher, and vox caster. If this unit takes 20 wounds the player will have to allocate 2 wounds to each guardsmen. Since they are allocated though, it is possible that the unit will live even with 10 wounds.
Say the unit takes six unsaved wounds but they are on the sergeant, grenade launcher, and vox caster (each one has two wounds allocated to them). Thats only three lost models for six unsaved wounds compared to if the unit was made up entirely of the same model and had to take all 6.
Now maybe they did this to be fair since losing your three special units might be worse than loosing six guardsmen. but if you had a special weapons team and it was the three guardsmen who took the wounds instead of the three special weapons it would work the other way.
I sort of felt like I had a question about this but can't seem to think of anything, I guess Im just sort of confused about the rule.
To me it would make more sense if you had to allocate wounds even on units that werent complex to make it fair but I am very new to this game (have yet to play a match) and this is the 5th edition so I suppose they have worked out most of the problems.
I would like to hear about any examples anyone has had that can help explain why this is a good rule (allocating wounds on complex units only).
This came in in the 5th edition. Back in 4th edition you just made your dsaves then removed the required models as you saw fit. This often left the guy carrying the melta gun the last man standing. I suppose you could argue that this represents other squaddies picking up the meltagun to use it but the same effect can work with the squad sage which makes less sense. the 5th edition rule means casualties are less predictable as would happen in real life.
Ork nob biker units make the most of the wound allocation rule. Every squad member has 2 wounds and is often armed with a unique equipment loadout so that wound allocation can end up with a unit taking 5 wounds but no models are removed from the table.
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Oh if I can just add this in here so I dont have to make a new topic.
The whole deal about being able to hit the entire unit if you can only see one model seems like an odd change too.
Say one unit has all but one model behind a building, it can only fire that one model at a squad completely in the open, and that squad in the open still gets a cover save because 50% of your unit cant see 50% of theirs. Returning fire the unit in the open gets to fire all of their weapons on your unit, cover saves again.
So it would actually be better to have the squad out in the open in this situation...
The wound allocation is a double edged sword - although you can lose a special/heavy weapon by bad luck, you can allocate wounds about to keep more people on the table, and minimise the effect of power weapons etc.
9 man squad with autocannon (2 wounds) plasma gun, vox and sgnt (and 5 grunts)
You take 4 flamer wounds (no save of any kind) and 7 bolt pistol hits. (we'll give you a cover save there). Your opponent looks likely to charge.
11 wounds on 9 men... two are going to get 2x wounds. Put two flamer wounds on the vox, 2x flamer wounds on the special weapon, and roll to save the rest. (On average 4 survive with 5-7 attacks back. 4th ed rules would result in 1-2 surviving.)
Your opponent charges and causes 2 power sword wounds and 7 standard wounds on your sgnt, 3 guardsmen and heavy weapon. (eek!) put the 2 power weapon wounds on the heavy weapon (you ain't firing it anyway) 6 on the 3 guardsmen and one on the sgnt.
Make his save and he hits back with 3 attacks. - worth a shot.
edit: It's the los from the firing model(s), don't include those not allowed to see.(or those not firing)
so the ones in the open won't save, but those firing the one weapon will be able to.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
No, he's right and it is a little odd.
If you have ten marines camped up behind some rocks with only the missile launcher sticking his head out, only the missile launcher is free to fire out at foes while the entire squad may be slaughtered if the unit is shot at enough.
I can see that it makes the game work but it is still a bit odd.
I assume in this instance that the idea is that the weapon is picked up by the other members of the squad so it would work like this.
Johnny has a rocket. Johnny got shot. Timmy has a rocket and so on until you would rather lose the rocket than any more men. When you lose the guy sticking out there is no more incoming fire to deal with...
@ applecookie are you aware of the rule that you have to roll for the different characters.
So in your example you accolate 14 wounds to the normal guards wich you have to role at once. and in a vet squad you also have to roll for all the same special weapons in one timr
i just say this because i've the idea that you aren't aware of that, but i could be completely wrong
Your suggestion about allocating wounds in non-complex units seems to be a bit non-sensical. Sure you allocate wounds to individual models, but you roll for saves as a group for each group of 'like' models. So non-complex units would not get any benefit from model-by-model wound allocation, as you'd still roll for like models as a group.
Sure, I can put two wounds a piece on each of my normal guardsman, but I roll them all at once and remove a casualty for EACH unsaved roll. It's not like I roll two saves for each guardsman and remove their corresponding model if either or both of them fail (therefore possibly saving me one wound). Usually the only time you're saving yourself from taking wounds is either when you have are losing a specially kitted model or your not making saves. In either case your opponent should be happy.
Personally, I *love* this rule. It always seemed stupid that a HUGE barrage of fire would blast away at a unit for an entire game yet their most valuable models would always be left standing. Real war is far more indiscriminant in the lives it claims. Now you can't kit a sarge or commissar and hide them and think them totally safe (unless in a massive squad, which is quite expensive in the end). You run the gambit of losing that model to a single save on a forced wound allocation.
Anything that makes players think more without interrupting the flow and nature of the game is good in my book!
Eh, it's a crazy system. I particularly like how you can shoot at a model in the open and, thanks to cover saves, have half your bullets stop in midair if you can't see his friends. But we digress.
I've seen Tyranid players use this 'Complex Units' tactic to good effect, particularly large squads of Warriors who can each be made unique via random, cheap biomorphs. Those squads remain at full effectiveness until they lose more than half of their wounds. Guardsmen can't do it so easily as our only uniqe models either have the good equipment or keep our men motivated. It's better just to take our casualties and then use Commissars and banners to pass our leadership tests. Or not even that--our infantry are as disposable as Grots.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
Yeah the more I think about it the more I am liknig the Complex unit wound allocation. I still dont like the cover save rule where 50% of the models in your unit have to see 50% of the models in the other unit.
Nevermind, after looking at the rules again I see that its only 50% of the firing models that have to see 50% of the enemy unit. This makes A LOT more sense to me now.
Last edited by AppleCookie; July 16th, 2009 at 20:17.
ON the nob bikers, make sure you pay attention to the rolls made on like models as they have to remove models when possible. All models with the same stats and load-out must be rolled collectively.
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