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I was just thinking of the comparison between LC and WC. When you think about it the only time you would the re-roll on the to-hit roll are against WS4+ T3 enemies and WS9+ T4 enemies. Other than that you are either better off using your re-roll on the to wound roll or you are statistically equal either way. Meanwhile WC are 5pts more than LC, or 10pts more if you want two of them. I'm asking other SW players if they think they are worth the extra points because looking at them stat-wise they aren't really any better unless you plan of fighting a lot of kroot. T5 enemies? Re-roll to wound. Same with T6. T4? Its irrelevant. T3 WS? You want to re-roll to hit. Against T3 WS3 though its irrelevant.
So I ask you other members of LO: Do you believe the extra 5pts per WC is worth the limited bonuses over a LC? I say no, but I wonder what you guys think.
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
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I'm inclined to Agree, the reroll to hit isn't much of a benefit since in almost every case reroll to wounds is better or equal. Note that Wolves can get preferred enemy from Wolf Priests and Grimnar making hit reroll in Close combat even smaller a benefit.
However, while the cost difference of dual claws termies and dual claws Wolf Guards make it a bad deal, the possibility of getting claws and shields or claws and combi weapons as well as the claws being only 5 points costier than power weapons do make them worth it in some cases. (Tho dual claws on power armor is a bad idea imo. And if power armor has a Pistol a Frost Axe/Blade will be better than a single claw.)
For an all around list I'd take LCs always. WCs are a very niche weapon and don't belong in an all purpose army. LCs are just generically good enough to get the job done 90% of the time.
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Having the choice between RRTH and RRTW isn't something I'd complain about, and the small number of them you're likely to include in an average army means the cost increase is hardly prohibitive. They're not the BEST innovation in the Codex, but they're alright.
Statistically if you need 4's to hit and 4's to wound, then whether you re-roll to hit or re-roll to wound will have the same probably of causing wounds.
Reroll to hit = 75% chance to hit, 50% chance to would for a final probability of 37.5 chance to cause a wound from the initial dice
Reroll to wound equals = 50% chance to hit, then 75% chance to wound for final 37.5% again
SO, here are my thoughts:
1) if even chances to hit and wound, do whatever you feel like, I go with whichever I am having bad luck at, doesn't actually mathematically matter
2) re-roll to hit if you strength is higher than the target's toughness (furious charge with Ragnar can make this happen alot, or fighting IG or eldar). You have a higher chance than even to wound, so get more hits on the target
3) without going into a huge statistic sheet, it is marginally (and I mean decimal) better to re-roll wounds than to hit, when the toughness is higher than your model's strength.
Wolf Claws are nice and fluffy, but would have been much better if you got to make the decision after rolling to hit, rather than before any rolls.
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(We must have posted our mathhammers at the same time. My school of thought in this post is just what single dice roll would benefit most. I think yours is what overall result would benefit most)
I think being able to reroll is nice. Being able to choose what you reroll is even better (hit or wound). I think what your saying is that your almost always going to be rerolling hits any way like LC so why bother with WC. I am not going to argue there just state how I would choose what die to reroll.
Statistically I think your best bet is to reroll whichever is going to be a roll of 4+. Followed by: 5+, 6+, 3+, then 2+.
IMO a dice roll that requires a 4 or better is the best because it is a 50% chance that bumps it up to a 75% chance with rerolls it is the highest gain out of all the rerolls a gain of 25%. Basically meaning that the reroll from a 4+ is the best bang for your buck.
A 2+ roll is a 83.33% chance that moves to a 97.22% chance a 13.89 gain
A 3+ roll is a 66.67% chance that moves to a 88.89% chance a 22.22 gain
A 4+ roll is a 50.00% chance that moves to a 75.00% chance a 25.00 gain
A 5+ roll is a 33.33% chance that moves to a 55.56% chance a 22.22 gain
A 6+ roll is a 16.67% chance that moves to a 30.56% chance a 13.89 gain
A 3+ has the same gain as 5+ and a 2+ has the same gain as a 6+ But these are hitting most of the time already, so they don’t need as much help.
(If anyone comes up with different numbers for the rerolls %’s let me know.)
Last edited by chrono10; October 18th, 2009 at 23:30.
deleted multi post.
Last edited by chrono10; October 18th, 2009 at 23:26.
Well when all things are equal, the roll to hit reroll IS more useful because it gives you the potential to score more wounds overall.
"Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men." - Jean Rostand
After thinking about it there doesnt seem to me to be a difference between picking which to reroll hits or wounds. As long as you pick the one with the most benifit ie: roll of 4+ as i said in my previous post.
That being said the major advantage to paying 5 extra points more per wolf claw as i see it could be that if you have prefered enemy and the wolf claws you can reroll both hits and wounds.
Where as if you had lightning claws the prefered enemy rule wouldnt even get to apply.
Ah well sorry im at work.. i dont have my book i was thinking lighting claws were reroll hit and not wound. hmm so 5 extra points and you have the option to reroll hits. sounds like lightning are slightly better imo.. cheaper and when stacked with prefered enemy are better.
Last edited by chrono10; October 19th, 2009 at 05:35.
Lightning Claws allow you to reroll wounds.
Preferred Enemy make you reroll failed hits.
How does Lightning Claws prevent Preferred Enemy to apply?
And while the Rerolling to hits part of Wolf Claws isn't that useful (especially not on HQs which should be hitting on 3+ (especially with wolftooth necklaces)), Claws are much better than standard Power Weapons and so are totally worth a 5 points bump compared to that.
As i stated before the only point at which they ain't that worth it is dual claws (weither on HQs or Termies) if you compare them to Vanilla's, but then Versatility has a price.
IE : If you compare cost cross codexes to Vanilla's Claws they ain't worth it, but if you compare them to other choices in codex? They are worth it in most cases.