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By the wording of the rules, would I be wrong to assume that this stipulation excludes non-character models that have access to sagas? There are two to be exact -- Venerable Dreadnoughts and Iron Priests -- and neither of them are characters. Hence, it should be possible to field two or three Venerable Dreadnaughts with Saga of Majesty, or Iron Priests with Saga of the Iron Wolf.. correct?Originally Posted by Space Wolves Codex, page 81
The benefits are limited by cost effect and neither would be game breaking (unlike including four Wolf Lords with Saga of the Warrior Born, hence it is illegal). I am borderline, 50/50, considering that either case may be fluff justified.
What are your opinions on the matter?
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That said, it says "characters", and while Ven Dreads and Iron Priests ARE single-model units they're not "characters" in any way. In fact I don't think there's any way to argue that a Dreadnought is a character, because it's a vehicle. Sticky wicket, methinks.I think having 3 Land Raiders that are able to move 15" and get Repairded on a 4+, or a line of Venerable Dreads granting Chaos Glory to all squads within 6", would probably be a lot more potent than 4 Wolf Lords chopping their way through some infantry.The benefits are limited by cost effect and neither would be game breaking (unlike including four Wolf Lords with Saga of the Warrior Born, hence it is illegal). I am borderline, 50/50, considering that either case may be fluff justified.
Then again.... it says "characters", not "models", so I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be allowed.
I would just recommend caution on this one. Strictly RAW it does very much seem allowed, but it doesn't entirely feel RAI O.K. The Saga's seem to be something to make different models unique, and as Frank said, move a bit away from the list spam we see with other armies. I would tread carefully, and perhaps have a talk about it with your gaming group.
It would be odd if by "character" they meant models; Since by that it would follow that you could not field , for example, more than one troop with power armor, bolt pistol , bolter gun, chain sword et cetera. since they would have the same "War gear".
Then again i don't have the codex, so i can't really comment on the meaning of the phrase.
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Basically Gorestompa's quote is what the book says. The problem arises because it's phrased in such a way that it's ambiguous whether two individual model units, such as Iron Priests, Lone Wolves, Dreads and Ven Dreads, can take the same combination of wargear; they're character-like in the fact that they're powerful (-ish) single-model units, but none of them are *actually* "characters" per se, none of them have the Independent Character special rule, and the Dreads are in fact vehicles.
I'm leaning more towards "yes", because otherwise you wouldn't be able to take two Dreads/ Ven Dreads with the same combination of weapons and each Iron Priest/ Lone Wolf you took over the first would HAVE to have some form of wargear.
EDIT: There's also the box-out thing on the Army List intro page in which it seems to infer that it's only HQ characters that can't be the same. So yeah, I'd say Iron Priests et al are fine to take the same combination of Sagas and wargear and whatever.
Last edited by Frank Fugger; October 18th, 2009 at 18:30.
I don't have the codex, but regarding characters; aren't models such as squad sergeants considered characters? The "Independent Character" rule is not required for a model to be considered a character; they are simply a type of character, where a squad sergeant would be an "upgrade character." I believe the word character is used to refer to both types in the rulebook, though I don't have a page reference for it at the moment.
Just something I thought I might bring up for you guys to discuss.
They are indeed; they're considered "upgrade characters" by the BRB, however the Space Wolves don't have Sergeants as such, their squad leaders have to be split off from a squad of Wolf Guard (which means they're just stock squad models that have split off to join a different unit), so it doesn't really apply. Could probably still be considered "upgrade characters" I suppose, since they're a unit upgrade, but.... ugh. I dunno. My head hurts. I hate Phil Kelly
I guess my question is, does the rulebook define what a "character" actually is? I use upgrade character and Independent Character as my examples, but is there an actual definition of the term in the book? I don't have it on campus with me, otherwise I'd be more than happy to check.
I was working on the basis that this rule would apply to the codex entries that has the Independant Character special rule, but I tend to agree that this is a rule made up to make the SW a mixed up, non codex space marine chapter, where all the "characters" are vying for notoriaty.
While I dont think I'd take more than one Iron Priest in an army, I like the current model so Wargear changes would be difficult, as for Dreadnaughts, they've earnt their honour by being such great warriors deservant of longer life on the battlefield.
So to end a fluffy answer, I would say they can have identical wargear and Sagas, but it was never intended to be that way.
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