Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Okay so this's been bothering me for a while now..
Someone convince me that what everyone seems to believe about the thunderwolf mounts are correct!
Characters buying thunderwolves merely gain +X in strength and toughness, nowhere does it say that this is hard-wired..
Necron Lords buying the destroyer body also gets a toughness increase, however for them it specifically says that as a result they wont suffer from instant death anymore.
There is no such note for the thunderwolves.
What I'm trying to say is that by RAW characters buying thunderwolves will still suffer instant death from krak missiles and when using power fists or thunderhammers wont have a mighty strength of 10.
I know that it might seem weird as this means that Canis and the Cavalry are somewhat stronger and tougher than your ordinary characters, but RAW I see no reason for applying the logics here.
Other than this feel free to write whatever's on your mind about them big wolves..
I myself find the whole concept somewhat disturbing.. For multiple reasons.. Spacemarines on mounts? C'mon.. And those marines aren't even blood claws C'MON!? What happened to Russ's teachings now?
When that's said I think it's still pretty, and would be really sweet were they to make some good great wolves (I dont consider Fangir as a such), but untill then, I fear too many people will put marines on random way too small wolves.. Ouchies..
Well, the Thunderwolf Calvary have a base statline that would make them not subject to instant death from Krak missiles and would have strength 10 with a PF. As for characters taking mounts, I don't have my BRB handy. Is the Calvary bonus Strength/Toughness/Wounds different from the bike bonus? I mean to say, is there a difference between Calvary and Bikes when it comes to that stat boost, being different entities?
As cavalry doesn't usually confer any stat bonus it's not mentioned for them at all. Bikes always get the extra toughness, however they simply remind you that as a bonus it wont affect instant death and guides you to page 26 where you will find an 'instant death' paragraph, it merely says that you do not take bonuses to toughness into account.
As for the strength bonus, on page 7 you should find a box with 'multiple modifiers', it tells you to multiple first, then add. And even gives an example of a similar situation.
I'm aware that the cavalry and Canis got their bonuses 'hard-wired', but I think this is kind of stupid in the first place aswell, are we to go by RAI..
But we aren't! So for RAW I dont think there's any excuse for saying you wont die from that battlecannon and that you hit with a monstrous S10. Only Lysander does! (and those freak cavalry)
In the SW codex, on page 62, you'll find the thunderwolf mount as a piece of wargear with it's own rules.
Thunderwolf cavalry are "cavalry" , while bikers are "bikes". They both have seperate rules coming from what unit type they are.
Thunderwolf cavalry, including ICs on thunderwolf mounts, do have a T5 which is not modified when checking for Instant Death.
So yes, anything on a thunderwolf, is quite powerful. Which players make more-so, by giving ICs storm shields when able.
The only thing limiting them, is their high point cost.
Personally, I'd rather have my BCs in a LRR. A full-pack of 15, 1 with a plasma pistol, 1 with a power fist, and a WG knitted out with some sick CC gear.
YES it is a 'wargear', but it still only adds a certain amount of strength, toughness and attacks..
This is to be treated as a stat-bonus..
The Mark of Nurgle also adds toughness, and while it's explicitly written that it wont affect instant death it is supposed to always work like this. It's NOT written for the thunderwolf 'wargear' that it affects instant death and power fists and such..
There's no doubt about the Thunder Wolf cavalry, those got it "hard-wired", you can tell from their stat-line, but the wargear thunderwolves are inferior if we are to judge by RAW..
Though I think I'd even more have 10 wolf guard drop-podding with 2 hidden fists/thunderhammers and some combimeltas :o
I'm not much for the big wolves when it comes down to it..
Last edited by LastDinosaur; October 20th, 2009 at 20:33. Reason: minor stuff
Secondly thunderwolves should give them toughness 5 in regards to instant death. Thunderwolf Cavalry has it and so does Canis, so logically that is what is intended. This codex needs to be FAQ'd, i seems like they were in a hurry to put it out. I for one would have been willing to wait a little longer for a codex that made sense.
Some people are like slinkies...not really good for anything but still make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
You should notice however that I'm speaking of the RAW..
If the increase was not intended to count for instant death it would say so, as it does in the bike entry. It's a flat profile increase.
This codex is not badly written, it's simply written, and that confuses people who are used to 3 unnecessary paragraphs extrapolating the subject.
SW Codex p.54, concerning Fangir: "Canis has an improved profile as a result of riding Fangir to battle. The characteristic bonuses are included in his profile above."
Compare this to, say, Typhus. CSM Codex p.55 in the Wargear: "Mark of Nurgle (included in profile)"
Typhus' increased toughness due to Wargear appears in parenthesis. Canis' increased statline has no such parenthesis, yet both increases come from the same source: Wargear. On an even further note, both the Mark of Nurgle AND the rules for Bikes specifically mention the Instant Death, yet nowhere in the Wargear entry for Thunderwolves does it say they'd use the original Toughness; or Strength for that matter.
And then, of course, there's the fact the Thunderwolf Cavalry has the stat boosts "hard-wired" into their profile.
Looks pretty clear to me... Don't like S10 Hammers that you can't oneshot with a lascannon or a krak missile? Get Vindicators or drown them into S5+ shots, either will work.
Unfortunately, I would have to agree with LastDinosaur on this issue. The space wolf codex, as with all new codices that come out, has mistakes and/or inconsistencies. This is one of them.
Canis and thunderwolf cavalries have their mounts "hard-wired" into their stats...it is the base stat and is the number they use for determining power fists and instant deaths. However, thunderwolf mounts are upgrades, no matter whether they are cavalry or bikes, and thus must follow the rules for wargear upgrades as determined in the BRB. Thus they are only S9 if they take power fists/thunderhammers and T4 in determining instant death. Unlike the Necron destroyer lord where the codex explicitly says he is immune to instant death by double-toughness weapons, it says no such thing in the space wolf codex.
I believe this is an oversight by GW which needs to be FAQ'd. Until, they do, thunderwolf mounts will always be inferior to the thunderwolf cavalry.