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So,i read Logan's profile in the wolf 'Dex:
"Do wolf guard take up a troop choice, or count as troops?"
I don't see a difference, especially in newer codices. If they count as Troops, then they are considered Troops, and take up a Troops slot on the FO chart as well as count as a scoring unit. The best comparison would be Pedro Kantor and Sternguard in Codex: Space Marines. Sternguard, with Pedro, simply count as scoring units by wording, not as Troops, so they would still count as Elites. If the unit is said to count as Troops, then they are then Troops (like bike squads for a Captain on bike).
While I agree you Lost Nemesis I just don't like refering to other codexes in order to interpret the rules..
A stronger argument (in my book) would be that looking at Canis he does the exact same thing, just for the wolves.. Now looking at the wolves it says they can never claim objectives.. For something to be claim objectives it must be a troops choice (or scoring) thus it'd be a redundant rule if 'count as troops' didn't mean that they could be taken as troops..
Okay.. not really needed, but at least it's a confirmation so seems more plausible that we're right now =)
I think it works the same as Deathwing, they become Troop units. That's how I read it but of course the SW Codex was written by people who don't have editors.
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I'd go with the consensus; it says they "count as Troops" in an army including Logan, which to me suggests they're Elites which count as Troops choices, so they take up Troops slots instead of Elites ones. The Sternguard and Deathwing comparisons are good illustrations of concept.
Next question; does the fact that LoganWing Wolf Guard count as Troops stop you taking them in the Elite slots? :-o
Wow, that is confusing. I just assumed that 'counting' as troops meant they could be taken as a troops choice, but if you go by recent codexes, it's not so clear.
In the space marines and ork codex, some HQs allow certain units to be TAKEN as a troop choice, but in the space marine codex, Pedro allows Sternguard to count as SCORING UNITS. There isn't any reference to a unit 'counting as' a troops choice.
Unfortunately, this makes the ruling a little uncertain. In the past, if it meant you could take a unit as a troop instead of their original unit type (elite/fast/heavy) they said it can be 'taken as a troop choice'. On the other hand, if they only meant the unit could claim objectives, they said 'count as a scoring unit'.
So where does that leave us? Waiting for an official FAQ, sadly.
Until then, I have to assume that they mean you can take them as a troop choice, instead of their normal type (fast/elite/heavy), because I don't see what benefit the Fenrisian Wolves get from counting as troops when they can never claim objectives. Starting on the board in Dawn of War missions? It doesn't seem to even be worth mentioning, let alone spending points on a special HQ for.
This is why I hate GW codexes. Nothing's perfectly clear.
What I meant was that I don't see a point of the wolves counting as troops unless you can also TAKE them as troops.
Basically, there are 3 ways you can interpret the rule, and only one of them really makes sense:
1. You're allowed to take the wolves as troop choices, instead of fast attack, and they count as troops in all respects (this is the one that makes sense).
2. They take up both a troop and a fast attack slot in the force org chart, and count as both.
3. They take up a fast attack slot in the force org chart, but count as troops in all other respects.
What I was trying to say is that 2 + 3 don't make sense, because there's no real benefit to having them count as troops unless you can field them as troops instead of fast attack, since they can never claim objectives.
The Fenrisian Wolves' "Supernumary" box-out says that because the Wolves "do not understand the finer points of military strategy", they "cannot claim objectives under any circumstances". Including if circumstance dictates they count as Troops because the army includes Canis Wolfborn.
Ergo, in an army that includes Canis Wolfborn, Fenrisian Wolves count as Troops and take up Troops slots when selected. Not Fast Attack slots, not Troops and Fast Attack slots, just Troops slots. Because they count as Troops, and therefore stop being Fast Attack units. They can't, however, control objectives like a normal Troops unit would, because their little "Supernumary" box-out rule thing says so.
The advantage is this; in an ordinary non-Canis army you can take 45 Wolves maximum, which is 3 squads of Ld5 I4 failures (unless you've got another character with Wolfkin; for the sake of simplicity we'll assume you haven't) that use up Fast Attack slots you might like to use for Thunderwolves or Land Speeders. In a non-Canis army my Fast Attack slots are free for Thunderwolf Cavalry or Land Speeders, but I still get to take the Wolves (with their Canis-enhanced abilities) as padding. My Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are still Troops so I can still take those to control objectives for me, unless I'm feeling stupid and want to fill my FoC with units that can't claim ground. Which I can do. But probably won't.
As far as I can see #1 is the only way to possibly interpret the rule, because that's how it works for everything else that counts-as Troops in every other 40K Codex. Deathwing Termies don't take up Troops and Elites slots, Khan's Bike Squads don't take up Troops and Fast Attack slots, why would it be any different for the Wolves?
EDIT: Don't get Troops confused with scoring units; just because something is a Troops unit, or counts as one, doesn't necessarily mean it is also a scoring unit. Swarms aren't, so Rippers and Nurglings, while Troops choices, can't control objectives. Vehicles aren't, so Ravenwing Land Speeders and Big Mek Deff Dreads don't count as scoring units either despite counting as Troops. The final exception is for units whose special rules state that they may never count as scoring units, which is essentially what the Wolves' box-out is saying. Ergo, Troops unit, Troops slot, can't control ground.
Last edited by Frank Fugger; October 28th, 2009 at 19:41.
i never knew a tiny bit of the codex could cause so much hassle, especially a problem such as this. Not trying to flame here, but maybe some people need to read the wording more carefully or just became better at english to interpret it, because sometimes i find i need to get someone else with better english than me to interpret a rule that i don't 100% get. it's not like the saga and wargear wording that has been ********* up in the codex.