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  1. #1
    Member levitian's Avatar
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    Combat squad question

    I have a question regarding combat squads in a dawn of war deployment. Since you´re not allowed to deploy a unit in combat squad if it has a dedicated vehicle. Are you still allowed tosplit the unit into combat squads once they moves uo the board?
    I'm asking this since I have a full tactical squad in a razorback in my new list, but if this isnt allowed, I might just remove it.

    A tear is only water, and a sigh is only air.

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  3. #2
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    The only restriction is that you must deploy both combat squads at the same time. Because only at the time of deployment can you decide whether to split or not to split (Page 51, Codex: Space Marines). Units that are kept in reserve are explicitly not deployed in order to be deployed later. (Page 94 in the big rulebook.) Same is true for dawn of war deployment: units that don't start the game on the board (a maximum of one HQ and two troops choices) are not deployed.
    At the time when those units actually are deployed (on turn 2 or later in case of reserves or on turn 1 in case of dawn of war, etc) you may deploy your tactical squad and decide at deployment to combat squad them and deploy the combat squads in different locations if you like. So to answer your question: yes, you can split the squad when walking the unit onto the board from the table edge in turn 1 in dawn of war deployment.
    What you can't do is start one combat squad on the board and the other off the board, because the entire tactical squad needs to be deployed at the same time. And at deployment you decide whether to split it or not.

  4. #3
    Now w/ English voice-over LastDinosaur's Avatar
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    Now that I look into this question I'll give you that the wording is pretty unclear for space marine units wishing to split while at the same time being hold in reserve or DoW 'reserve', especially when they're in a transport.

    If we are to take wording literally they split once they are 'deployed', being held back in reserve makes you postpone the deployment. Yet for them to arrive at the same time as their transport you must claim that they're riding it.. However this is impossible for a ten man squad in a razorback, and in a Rhino they'd be unable to split as the only exception to splitting once they have entered the game is the droppod.

    Even though I normally advocate RAW, I'd suggest to house it and say the squads split 'during deployment', this'd solve all problems I think and this is how we've always played around here.


    Edit: I'm not in total agreement with you on this one Red Archer.. I believe it to be more restricting than that as I've written, although I forgot to mention what you said aswell, both combat squads must be deployed on or off the table.
    Last edited by LastDinosaur; October 28th, 2009 at 11:22.

  5. #4
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    I don't see the problem. If a dedicated transport (Razorback, Rhino, Drop Pod) transports one of two combat squads of the FOC selection it was bought for it is carrying the unit.
    Dedicated transports may only arrive empty or transporting the unit they were bought for, in the latter case they and the unit they were bought for are rolled for as one (page 94, big rulebook). When you deploy the unit (and its dedicated transport, in this case, but this has nothing to do with it) you decide whether to combat squad it or not (page 51, Codex: Space Marines). If you decide to do both (start the transport carrying the unit and combat squad that unit) your transport is still carrying the unit it was bought for as long as one of the combat squads is inside. [If carrying a combat squad wouldn't count as carrying the unit then you couldn't even buy a razorback for a full tactical squad, because the transport could never carry the unit.]

  6. #5
    Now w/ English voice-over LastDinosaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    I don't see the problem. If a dedicated transport (Razorback, Rhino, Drop Pod) transports one of two combat squads of the FOC selection it was bought for it is carrying the unit.
    Dedicated transports may only arrive empty or transporting the unit they were bought for, in the latter case they and the unit they were bought for are rolled for as one (page 94, big rulebook). When you deploy the unit (and its dedicated transport, in this case, but this has nothing to do with it) you decide whether to combat squad it or not (page 51, Codex: Space Marines). If you decide to do both (start the transport carrying the unit and combat squad that unit) your transport is still carrying the unit it was bought for as long as one of the combat squads is inside. [If carrying a combat squad wouldn't count as carrying the unit then you couldn't even buy a razorback for a full tactical squad, because the transport could never carry the unit.]
    The problem is that while they're in reserve you dont have two different combat squads, you have -one- squad only.. This 10-man squad cannot ride a razor (though you can still buy it for them, it says nowhere that they must be able to fit into it.. like you can buy a Rhino for 20 CSM) so they cannot claim they are inside it and thus wont arrive together..

    For the Rhino I might be wrong, the wording on reserves is rather vague. But here goes my logic (again):
    Like above while in reserve they're not yet deployed so count as one squad only, this means that you can claim they're riding the rhino.. Now is where I'm unsure of exact ruling, but when a unit is claiming it is riding a transport in reserve I believe it must arrive inside the transport.. Thus you'd arrive with the Rhino and then they'd have been deployed already unable to split.

    I think your argument that part of the unit is still inside the Rhino is a good one though.. I'll think about it.. Untill then I'm pretty sure on the Razor RAW-wise, not so much on the Rhino, though like with the Razor you can't attach a character to a 10-man Rhino squad and have 6 guys arriving inside.

    Oh yay.. Now I am the 'evil rules-lawyer' again who tries to limit SM players on their choices.. I wouldn't really listen to me though.. I just like discussing RAW, I'd never myself play with the above as it contradicts RAI so much-- but please do prove me wrong =)

  7. #6
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastDinosaur View Post
    Oh yay.. Now I am the 'evil rules-lawyer' again who tries to limit SM players on their choices.. I wouldn't really listen to me though.. I just like discussing RAW, I'd never myself play with the above as it contradicts RAI so much-- but please do prove me wrong =)
    No, you're not the evil rules-lawyer.
    I know you from the rules discussion forum and I value your opinion. We both know how it's probably intended, but we both like discussing RAW. That's perfectly okay. It's just that in this case our view on the RAW seems to differ.

    Again: the rules say you have to declare whether the transport is carrying any of the units or not. You declare it is carrying the unit. You later have to fulfill this claim once the unit is deployed, and you do by having one combat squad inside. I see the rules perfectly permitting this and I don't see anything that speaks against that.
    As long as you can fulfill your claim and prove all your opponent's objections wrong within the rules when the units are in play you can claim whatever you want, because as long as the unit isn't in play no judgement can be made about it. So if your opponent says your razorback can't be in reserves carrying the unit it was bought for you kind of say "wait and see" and prove him wrong once you deploy (combat squadded).

  8. #7
    LO Zealot mynameisgrax's Avatar
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    I had to go back to the rulebook to check this one, and the answer is fairly intuitive.

    When a unit is held in reserve (for whatever reason, including Dawn of War) they can be held inside a vehicle that's also in reserve. The rulebook specifically states that they're 'inside' the vehicle while in reserve.

    Since 10 Space Marines can't fit inside a razerback, and they can't be split into combat teams until they enter the board, this means that the squad and the razerback have to be held in reserve separately. In Dawn of War missions, this means that the unit has to walk on. You can still split the unit, and have an independent character attached, but they can't enter the vehicle until they're on the field, since they aren't split into a combat team until they're on the field.

    The only restriction in regards to dedicated transports is that they cannot start in play (or in reserve) with any unit inside them besides the one they're dedicated to. They can, however, always start in play/reserve empty.

    This makes sense, since outside battle, the team will have to spend most of the time walking, with the vehicle slowly trailing alongside them, because they can't all fit inside. Then when combat starts, half the unit may pile into the vehicle and forge ahead, while the rest hangs back.
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