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I havent seen this addressed before so I wanted to ask about it, talked to some of my mates and this seems to make sence to them so wanted to see what the wider populace thinks.
The Daemonhunter book says (pg 30)
"a rhino...using its top hatch as a fire point will count as open-topped if the saving throw...worse than 3+"
Now in the BSB (pg 66)
"A fire point is a hatch...from which one more more passengers inside the vehicle can fire..unless otherwise specified differently in the vehicles entry a single passenger may fire out of a fire point and the other transported models may not fire."
"Open topped vehicles do not have specific fire point. Instead, all passengers in an open topped vehicle may fire..."
Now heres my logic, a model with a save worse than 3+ (we all know I'm talking about ISTs) would pop open that hatch and ALL of them can fire. The main reason I view this happening is that "regular" human sized people could potentially fit out the hatch and fire together, rather than some hulking brutes in power armor. The vehicle would be open topped that turn for firing purposes and remain open topped through the opponents following turn of shooting/assault phase, but the effect ends at the start of your next turn, so It pretty much only skips your movement phase.
Now This makes sence to me, but forums have a way of shooting down my ideas so try your best.
Oh how I wish it was played like that. Even though we "count" as open-topped, we still only have 1 fire point to shoot out of, and our chimeras/rhinos are only open-topped insofar as when we are hit by enemy fire, they get +1 to their rolls on our vehicle damage chart.
PS - Woohoo! 2000 posts!
Last edited by jy2; October 31st, 2009 at 02:35.
I understand we have 1 firing port, and the normal rules for firing ports are 1 model shooting per firing port. But the rulebook has that clause saying "unless otherwise specified differently in the vehicles entry" which I truly think our situation is one of those "otherwise specified" momments.
and after doing some more research I learned that in the witchhunters book it has a phrase under their rhino description along the lines of "counting as open topped when shot at" but since the daemonhunter has no specific phrase determining that, I figure we get the benefits of open-topped as well.
Last edited by ztlambe; October 31st, 2009 at 07:43.
i think the +1 on the vehicle damage chart might be negated by being able to gunboat with your DH units!
Well spotted, sir!
It'd be nice not to have to disembark to fire two Meltaguns, but other than that I can't see any real benefit to it. Let's face it, even if this does allow us to finagle some extra shots out of the top hatch the only models it works with are ISTs, who have Hellguns, which are just Lasguns with an AP rating. Hardly inspiring.
Yup; again, though, you can only do it with ISTs or Elite Inquisitor retinues with 4+ or worse armour, thanks to the 3rd Ed transport sharing rules.
Hang on then, this is probably really against the spirit of the rule, but it says a rhino using its top hatch as a fire point will count as open topped if the saving throw of any of its passengers is worse than 3+. So you could have an inquisitor lord, even in terminator armour, four acolytes with power armour all shooting or charging out of a rhino or chimera, as long as there is something in the squad with a lower save, say a few combat servitors?
The third dition tansport sharing rules I suppose are down to what you consider the IMPERIAL ARMOUR VOLUME 2 RULES UPDATE (v1.3) REVISED to be. It is an updated set of rules that amends the rules of a number of space marine and inquisitor vehicles to bring them inline with modern 40k. There is no mention of open toppedness in the rhino entry, but it also describes them as dedicated transport which according to page 67 of the BRB allows them to be used by other units after deployment.
I personally see that pdf as equivalent to an FAQ and would give it the same credence. Some people would say forge-world rules only apply in apocalypse games, but FW have always had very separate apocalypse data sheets and normal rules for normal games. Whether those rules can or must be used is debated.
FW is part of GW. I wish they would be a bit more specific about what exactly FW rules are. They appear to be a set of rules for units which were not in the codex when released, but which the more experienced gamer may wish to include. They are generally intentionally slightly over priced. So far so fine, I want to include a repressor in a normal game I have official rules made by part of GW. What I don't get is when they reprint the rules for existing units. Normally its not an issue because the rules are the same. The tau battle suits in vol.3 are the same as in the codex, just presented in a more understandable way (ie with all the wargear options on the same page).
In effect then they are copying the rules for lots of different vehicles into one place alongside thier new units or the sake of ease. What happens then when they update those rules, do they apply retrospectively to the codex. If they don't what was the point of that PDF. If no one is allowed to use it why would this department to GW even bother to write it.
Personally I'd use t,pleased that at least someone at GW is paying some attention to an old and forgotten list in dire need of updates, but I'm equally well aware that without a firm ruling form the studio on exactly how cannon FW stuff is, outside of my group of friends people may refuse to play me.