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  1. #1
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    Lone Wolf vs. Dreadnought

    What I am asking is, for the points, what would be the better choice between the two, in a 2000 point game?

    The Lone Wolf would have:
    1. Wolves(x2)
    2. Storm Shield
    3. Thunder Hammer

    The Dreadnought would have:
    1. Assault Cannon
    2. CC Weapon

    The army that I would be mostly facing is Ork and possibly Imperial Guard.


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    I think the Dreadnought will perform better than the Lone Wolf due to the fact that only the Nob with Power Klaw can actually damage it.

    The Lone Wolf will have to roll so many saves that I doubt it would survive an Ork mob.

    And I'm counting that you are definitely not allowing the Orks to charge you. On a charge, an Ork mob can pretty much destroy anything, with very few exceptions.

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    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
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    Depends on your army, what does the rest of it look like?

    Dreads fit in nicely if you have other armored units, though a multi-melta would serve it better (Wolves typically have trouble busting tanks, there are better anti-infantry weapons than ACs).

    Lone Wolves are face smashing goodness, but they are slow. However, they will do a lot more damage in assault than a Dread and if they buy it, you don't lose any KP.
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    Tyranid Warrior Fanatic Phalanx's Avatar
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    If the lone wolf had terminator armour then it would be pretty survivable. A 2+ save and FNP along with EW and a 5+ inv save is nothing to laugh at. On average an entire unit of 30 shoota boyz would have to charge the lone wolf to kill it, and even so thats still not even close to being a 100% chance at killing it (the average is 2.403 wounds, which can easily go wrong with some good dice rolling by the Lone Wolf player).

    If 30 shootaboyz and a PK nob can only just barely kill a lone wolf, then there's not much other units can do. I'd say its a good buy if you think you can get it stuck in and give it terminator armour. It works best against walkers and MCs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx View Post
    If the lone wolf had terminator armour then it would be pretty survivable. A 2+ save and FNP along with EW and a 5+ inv save is nothing to laugh at. On average an entire unit of 30 shoota boyz would have to charge the lone wolf to kill it, and even so thats still not even close to being a 100% chance at killing it (the average is 2.403 wounds, which can easily go wrong with some good dice rolling by the Lone Wolf player).

    If 30 shootaboyz and a PK nob can only just barely kill a lone wolf, then there's not much other units can do. I'd say its a good buy if you think you can get it stuck in and give it terminator armour. It works best against walkers and MCs.
    I'll have to disagree with the above. First, even the shootaboys will produce 87 attacks on the charge, at the same initiative and same strength of the Lone Wolf. This means that 25% of the 87 initial attacks will cause a 2+ save, allowing feel no pain for the unsaved wounds. That means that the Lone Wolf will be rolling 21 saves and it should fail approximately 4 of them, if that lucky. FNP at 50% says that it should fail 2 of his two wounds, hence dying.

    Now, let's supposed that he is really lucky and survived the above statistics staying alive. He will roll his attacks and kill some Orks, but then the Nob with PK will roll his 4 attacks hitting 2 and will wound those 2 that the Lone Wolf will have to use his invulnerable save to stay alive.

    Now, just imagine if the mob is armed with sluggas and choppas, which is the normal scenario....

    Bottom line: Even if the Lone Wolf is really lucky on the first round, he won't survive anothe round.

    The Dreadnought on the other hand, is immune to the Boys attacks due to his armor. The only threat is the Nob with PK, which will have to hit, roll penetration and have a good roll on the damage chart. The chances for the Dreadnought to survive round after round and tie up this mob are way higher than the Lone Wolf.

    I'm not saying that the Lone Wolf is a bad choice. I'm including one in my list, just because he is so cool. But specifically against Orks, the Dreadnought has a potential to survive way longer.

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    Tyranid Warrior Fanatic Phalanx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    I'll have to disagree with the above. First, even the shootaboys will produce 87 attacks on the charge, at the same initiative and same strength of the Lone Wolf. This means that 25% of the 87 initial attacks will cause a 2+ save, allowing feel no pain for the unsaved wounds. That means that the Lone Wolf will be rolling 21 saves and it should fail approximately 4 of them, if that lucky. FNP at 50% says that it should fail 2 of his two wounds, hence dying.

    Now, let's supposed that he is really lucky and survived the above statistics staying alive. He will roll his attacks and kill some Orks, but then the Nob with PK will roll his 4 attacks hitting 2 and will wound those 2 that the Lone Wolf will have to use his invulnerable save to stay alive.
    Amount of wounds from the boyz on average: 1.8125
    Amount of wounds from the nob on average: 0.5555
    Total: ~2.4 -> The exact number I gave earlier.

    I've seen people make those kinds of saves on a regular basis with plague marines and terminators. It wouldn't surprise me if the lone wolf lives. All the average means is the he has a bit over a 50% chance of dying.

    Now, just imagine if the mob is armed with sluggas and choppas, which is the normal scenario....

    Bottom line: Even if the Lone Wolf is really lucky on the first round, he won't survive anothe round.
    From what I've seen most people use Shoota boyz, and even if they did have slugga boyz they would take some big shootas too. But if we're going to do that, why not give the shoota boyz a round of shooting first? My example was chosen simply to show that he is fairly survivable as not many units can survive that kind of punishment, much less a single model. If he dies then you're saved a KP and the opponent just used twice his points to kill him. In fact you would probably want him to die in the first round in this case-> ideally the lone wolf would survive the boyz attacks, kill a few, and then die to the nob so you can shoot and assault the unit.

    Pretty much what my goal was was to show that he can take a lot of punishment. How many MEQ would a unit of shoota boyz kill on a charge? 9 on average (so they have a decent chance to wipe the unit of marines). If you remove the nob then its 7.5 MEQ killed on average. The lone wolf with TDA has a reasonable chance of surviving that. I would have to say thats pretty impressive for a model that costs less than 100pts. Its even better if you have a pair of wolves to toss a bunch of those wounds on to so you only have to save against a third of the wounds.

    The Dreadnought on the other hand, is immune to the Boys attacks due to his armor. The only threat is the Nob with PK, which will have to hit, roll penetration and have a good roll on the damage chart. The chances for the Dreadnought to survive round after round and tie up this mob are way higher than the Lone Wolf.

    I'm not saying that the Lone Wolf is a bad choice. I'm including one in my list, just because he is so cool. But specifically against Orks, the Dreadnought has a potential to survive way longer.
    The nob charging would have 4 S9 attacks. On average the dread is going to take some bad damage and it has a good 30% chance at being destroyed on the charge. Even if its not destroyed on the charge, odds are it will lose a couple of weapons and might get immobilized. It would likely be wrecked either on your turn on the opponent's next turn.

    Honestly, I'm not thinking of specifically against orks. I was thinking more of how survivable the lone wolf is against enemies that don't ignore armour. Orks are generally a good base for that kind of thing as they can pump out so many attacks. What lone wolves shine against are walkers and MCs. WS5 means they will generally hit on a 3+ and the re-roll to hit is quite useful. Add in that you can get a 3+ inv save along with your thunder hammer and enemy MCs and dreads will likely fall (unless the enemy has a hive tyrant with Implant attack. Then you have a dead lone wolf).
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    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    True the LW has a good armor ratio and rules to help him but in the scenario above its more luck reliance than anything else.I believed in the past that ultra geared chars also pose a great challenge till i had a squad of guardsmen(lasguns only) wipe out 5 terminators in a round due to bad luck of rolls.Now if you can fail the saves of 5 terminators(bad luck but it happens)with 20 attacks what can a single terminator do against 83?He is destined to die IHMO.True he will tie a whole unit but do you really buy units for them to die?

    I usually dont but if i do i usually use them in order to tie down multyples of enemies untill the less mobile elements of my army come and then you have a piencer move that snaps the opponent in half.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ==Me== View Post
    Depends on your army, what does the rest of it look like?

    Dreads fit in nicely if you have other armored units, though a multi-melta would serve it better (Wolves typically have trouble busting tanks, there are better anti-infantry weapons than ACs).

    Lone Wolves are face smashing goodness, but they are slow. However, they will do a lot more damage in assault than a Dread and if they buy it, you don't lose any KP.
    ... which, if you're usually playing Orks, is a good reason to take them. Dreads can only really be hurt by PK Nobs, true; but they don't have enough attacks on their own to take out the PK before it can hurt them. Hence, it'll hurt them.

    Lone Wolves will charge one mob of Boyz, blow their damage load at I4, then get killed by the return. If there's enough Orks in the mob then there's nothing your opponent can do about it; his return attacks will kill the LW and cost him a Kill Point. Even if they don't the squad is still locked with the LW, which means he's going to kill a few more Orks and then die.

    Then again, the Dread gets Heavy weapons as well as a DCCW so they can do more damage quicker. Tough call; I'd go with the Lone Wolf, purely for coolness sake.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    I'll have to disagree with the above. First, even the shootaboys will produce 87 attacks on the charge, at the same initiative and same strength of the Lone Wolf.
    The Boyz are I2 base. Furious Charge makes them I3. The Nob would be I4 on the charge, but he has a Power Klaw. The Lone Wolf is I4 base, so he's going to hit first unless your Nob doesn't have a Power Klaw.

    Even if the Boyz were I4 they'd still have to take attacks from the Lone Wolf and would therefore still suffer damage; assuming you haven't done something silly like given him a THunder Hammer or whatever.
    Last edited by Frank Fugger; November 2nd, 2009 at 18:29.

  10. #9
    Member Dhoom's Avatar
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    I am trying to figure which one to take in a take all comers list. Right now I am going with the dreadnought, but I would prefer to use a lone wolf if he was as competitve just for the cool factor. I would most likely use TDA and twin claws if I used the LW.

    My other elites are filled with an Iron preist on TW and the WGuard.

    Has anyone used the lone wolf a lot or done the 'math' to see if they are as good as a dread in a take all comers?
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