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So i have my first box of Wolf Guard Terminators to build and I am not sure what to equip them with. From what ive seen in the codex, they cant be the crazy 'lots of assCans in 5 guys' so im thinking to field them as close combat.
So my question to you guys is: How should i build the squad? They will be delivered most likely out of a DP or LR.
I'd go mostly CC with one as a gunner. Don't make them way expensive, get 1-2 for MCs/ICs and 1-2 for Infantry.
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There's a whole ton of ways to outfit a squad, but there's a few things to remember before you start building.
1. Paradigm shift from normal terminators. To put it bluntly, you cannot build terminators in SW the same way you do in SM or DA, or any other army.
The reason for this is that to get the same loadout as regular SM termies (Storm bolter + power fist), you'd be paying 3 points more than other armies. And don't even get me started on assault termies. To get the same loadout, you'd be paying 8 points more (2 wolf claws, aka, 2 lightning claws), or a whopping 23 points more (thunder hammer storm shield combo).
Ergo, when fielding terminators in SW, unless you are bleeding points (which you probably aren't), you'll need to be savvy.
First thing to remember, Power Swords are pretty cool. Sure, they don't have the stopping power of powerfists, but they're much more versatile when it comes to hordes. You are more or less getting a pretty good deal on them (power swords are usually the same cost as what you are paying for the Termie armor, the Storm Bolter, and the power sword) and in the end if you buy five guys, without adding anything to them, you'll save 35 points off standard terminators from other codex books.
What you must decide is a) what you want to do with those 35 points and b) if you are willing to go over the standard point value for termies in other books, by how much (5, 10, 20 points?)
The obvious thing is to grab one special weapon (a heavy flamer, assault cannon, or cyclone missile launcher) and something to pop vehicles in melee. I would suggest giving one guy a powerfist, and another the special weapon. If you took a Heavy flamer, you'll probably have some points over, and you can invest those in a storm shield maybe, or melta bombs (actually, take melta bombs for at least one guy anyway, that should almost always be standard). If you want to go over the standard cost for termies, then go ahead, but be mindful of the cost, they get expensive fast if you aren't careful.
Basically I'd go like this:
Power sword, storm bolter, melta bombs
power sword, storm bolter
power sword, heavy flamer
powerfist, storm bolter
frost blade, storm bolter
Cost is exactly the same as termies from standard SM codex, but in my opinion they're more versatile. They can strike earlier to soften up some targets with their power swords (honestly, while it sounds like a good idea, trying to kill 12 orks with powerfist termies just never ends well, it really doesn't), while being able to pop vehicles with their melta bombs and powerfist. If you feel it doesn't have enough vehicle popping power, then trade out of the frost blade for a powerfist and melta bombs (be sure to give them to different people, its a waste otherwise). This loadout should more or less be able to handle anything thrown at it from close or range in more or less one turn assuming you shoot, charge, and melee (8 storm bolter shots, a heavy flamer, along with 9 power sword attacks, 3 powerfist attacks, and 3 frost blade attacks).
Now, to deliver them...
I'd suggest a Land Raider to be honest. With something like terminators, you want them in CC ASAP. Otherwise why would you have those tasty power weapons. While DPs get you close, they also give you a turn where you can only shoot. Thus you are open to being shot and stabbed, generally in that order, before you turn comes around. This is the same with Deep Striking too. Not much of a difference really, unless you are counting on the weapon inside the DP + mobile cover from it or something (or paired them with Grimnar and gave them relentless...)
Anyhoo, complex tacticing aside, a Land Raider works better because you can hop out and hit them with your shiny sticks immediatly. Also, it never hurts to have a Land Raider severely injuring a unit before you charge in to finish them off. The one major downside is cost, and it comes out to be an expensive unit, but it should more or less murder anything silly enough to come within assault range of it.
Yup, Space Wolf terminators are complicated, unless you have like 500 points to throw at them. Wall of tactical rant over.
I went to the same exercise the other day while trying to figure out a 1500 Space Wolf list to play.
Like you, I also have a brand new box of SW Terminators and while I’m a pretty seasoned SM player, I’ve never played SW before. After reading and re-reading the Codex trying to figure this thing out, I realized I was doing a great mistake trying to build Wolf Guard Terminators like Space Marines Terminators.
One fine point I was overlooking is that when building Wolf Guard, you actually don’t need to have an all or nothing situation. You can mix and match, composing the squad as you need. An excellent example is that you don’t need to have five models in terminator armor to get a special weapon. You only need 5 models on the squad!
So, if you’re looking for an assault cannon or cyclone missile launcher let’s say, to join your long fangs squad, you can get a 5 model Wolf Guard squad, 4 in power armor, one in terminator with SB/PW and CML/AC. You attach that terminator to your long fangs pack and you now have another heavy weapon on the squad.
Another advantage in mixing power and terminator armor on the pack is when allocating wounds you can opt to lose a power armor model instead of losing an expensive terminator. If you still not getting it, image that a squad of 8 Wolf Guard, 5 in terminator and 3 in power armor, get caught in the open and hit by a plasma cannon and it inflicted 2 wounds. You now have the flexibility to choose between take an invulnerable save or just remove power armor models. This situation gets even better when you have a large number of wounds to allocate.
Besides that, the way one should use Wolf Guard is to complement the other packs. What is the point to place a power fist on a regular grey hunter when you can get a wolf guard with power fist with one extra attack for less and, on top of that, benefit for his better leadership?
So, my advice would be look at the list as a whole and think as a Space Wolf instead of a Space Marine.
Cowboy's last paragraph hit the nail on the head/chaos worshipper in the ghoulies.
Ive been playing Space Wolves for fifteen years, and this codex offers some fantastic ways to set up an army list against different armies that vanilla SM dosnt offer.
So, to add a bit of my own advice into the mix...
Look at what packs can have Wolf Guard added to them, and then look at your packs. For example, if you think your Blood Claws need an Assualt Cannon coz they are suffering at gunplay (which we all know they do) cost up that Wolf Guard.
Then look at another pack. Maybe you want a twin Wolf Claw Wolf Guardin Terminator Armour to bolster close combat. Cost it up. Go through this though process several times.
When you think you've had a good bash at it, work out which 5 legal models you can make out of the box and field as a Terminator Squad, and see if your happy with that combo as a) A Wolf Guard Terminator Pack, and b) detached as Pack Leaders.
This flexibilty is their greatest strength, as they pay for it in points.
Hope this helps.
Space Wolves: Great Company of Berek Starkiller, 3700 pts.
Imperial Guard: XII Cytherian Regiment: 1400 pts.
15 years experience, numerous other models not fielded.
Something small to add:
If you're looking at straight close combat efficiency for WGT (ignoring PAWG) then 2xWC have the highest wounds to points ratio. (~42pts per kill MEQ)
If you want shooting and close combat then WC/SB is more points effective than PW/SB. (~50pts per kill MEQ vs 66 pts per kill MEQ) with PFs being fairly close in efficency to WC/SB at ~51pts per kill MEQ.
So pretty much if you want a unit thats decent at shooting and can fight well in close combat then I would recommend having one guy with AC/WC, three guys with WC/SB, and one guy with ChainFist/SB for 230pts. You will cost the same as a standard tactical terminator squad with just an assault cannon and you will be nearly as killy, but with most of your attacks at a higher initiative so you will lose less attacks if the opponent comes at your with power weapons or the like. This unit would be a lot less fearful of 230pts of PAWG (10 PAWG with 1 power fist and 3 power weapons, or 5 PW of they didn't care about walkers and MCs) than a unit of 5 tactical terminators would be.
In case you were wondering, TH/SS SW terminators score really badly in this at 75.6 ppkMEQ. Considering that even naked PAWG come out to 72ppkMEQ...
Last edited by Phalanx; November 24th, 2009 at 15:31.
40K armies: Tyranids (2001), Space Wolves (2008), Sisters of Battle (2011)
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Thanks guys, i like the ideas, now to try them out.
One of the scariest Wolf Guard Termie configurations is the "Sir Rends-a-lot".
He's fairly expensive for a single model, weighing in at 78 points, but the sheer damage potential, physical and psychological, and survivability he posesses is worth the cost.
Wolf Guard (he does need 4 other WG for this to be possible)
-Storm Shield (instead of Power Weapon)
-Assault Cannon (to replace Storm Bolter)
-Mark of the Wulfen
At range = 4, S6AP4 Rending
Up close = D6+1, S4 Rending
Defence = 2+/3++
Mysterious Member of the ANZAC Clan
I agree with GenesisD, Cowboy did hit the nail on the head. But if you're having trouble thinking like a Wolf (do the other Codex Marines have you too indoctrinated?) Try thinking of Wolf Guard Terminators as being similar to Vanguard Veteran Squads.
My mate loves his Vanguard... and he especially loves to pump them up to an excess of 650 some points, with a full compliment of Storm Shields, Power Claws, and Thunder Hammers. This is wrong.. wrong wrong wrong! What he fails to realize, and what you should avoid, is that their basic load out is effective enough (or in the case of WGT, very effective!) Take advantage of their supreme customization, and do not try to load them out like a horde of identical Tactical Marines.
With a pack of 5x WGT, you have the opportunity to make each model unique, allowing you a lot of power when deciding how to allocate wounds. Here are some options to consider:
1) Heavy Weapons -- If you're loading them up in a Land Raider, you'll want a Heavy Flamer. Simple as that. They're awesomely destructive, even against MEQ, with an auto-hit and 3+ to wound, they'll easily stack up armour saves. More importantly, they're almost guaranteed to take out 5+ models in a horde.
Aside: If you're equiping your HW WGT with an Assault Cannon or CML to be assigned as a Pack Leader, consider attaching him to a footslogging GH pack instead. Long Fangs are too easy to break, and you're not helping them any by adding more shots -- they have enough as is. Conversely, by adding him to Grey Hunters, you're allowing yourself the opportunity to fire at a third target if need be.. with Long Fangs, you could still only fire at two targets.
2) Storm Shield -- 3++ saves are sexy. But don't go the way of my friend and buy one for every model. One is sufficient enough. You only want to be able to allocate those melta/plasma/power_/etc.. wounds to someone who's more likely to survive.
3) Anti-tank -- Melta Bombs are the cheapest way to differentiate models for wound allocation. If you have two vanilla WGT left over, give one of them Melta Bombs. They're cheap, and always worth having one or two around.
In place of a Power Fist, I'm a fan of Chain Fists. They're only +5 points more, and allow your Termie to attack like a MC. Not necessary, but it doubles the psychological effect, as well as pretty much guarantee every hit will penetrate.
4) Special Combat Weapons -- This is pretty much the only time I would consider taking Wolf Claws. I am a bit turned off by their price increase, for little added benefit, especially since I like having them in pairs for the +1A. WGT get them for dirt cheap, and they're already missing out on the +1A due to the Storm Bolter. Re-rolling failed to-hits is great if you get stuck in with an uber-CC character, and re-rolling to-wounds is great to stack up more MEQ wounds.
5) As Cowboy stated, you can include Power Armoured WG with your WGT! Epic. Keep the extra WG vanilla, or maybe one Combi-(). It is good to have a few models in a unit without unique wound allocation.
Here's my favorite load out:
Wolf Guard [ 615 ]
+5x Wolf Guard Terminators [ 215 ]
...+1x Power Sword, Storm Bolter, Melta-bombs
...+1x Wolf Claw, Storm Bolter, Melta-bombs
...+1x Chainfist, Storm Bolter
...+1x Power Sword, Heavy Flamer
...+1x Power Sword, Storm Shield
+4x Wolf Guard
...+3x Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
...+1x Combi-Plasma, Close Combat Weapon
+1x Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader
...+1x Power Sword, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher
+Land Raider Crusader
This is a super versatile unit, of which the Terminators are only a scarce few points more than SM Termies, and IMO much deadlier! I especially like the load out because the 5 WGT + 4 WG occupy 14 spaces inside the LRC. Guess what! That's exactly enough room to include an HQ-Terminator (*coughNjalcough*)
EDIT: Also note.. the LRC is my absolute favorite Land Raider variant. The Hurricane Bolters are defensive weapons, which means that while moving at Combat Speed, you can fire all of your weapons at Infantry, and POTMS can fire the Multi-melta at Armour. Just wanted to throw that out there, not that everybody doesn't already know.
Last edited by BossGorestompa; November 26th, 2009 at 15:40.
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