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jy's TWC thread got derailed with Heavy Support talk, so I'm moving it here. It was suggested that the Dakkapred is a nonoptimal competitive choice in a SW army (or honestly, any SM army), to which I heartily disagree. Here is my latest response.First off, at AV13, it's fairly durable. Second, I already mentioned that in Balanced/Foot lists Long Fangs are a better choice. However, in a mech army, you want to oversaturate enemy AT fire by putting as many hulls as possible on a table. The Pred is an incredibly cheap and effective way of doing this.you certainly get some firepower for your points with a pred. the problem is that the firepower could be neutralized fairly easily by stunning or shaking, a very common thing to happen to vehicles. comparatively costed long fangs tend to sport that firepower while not having the same weakness (infantry getting pinned, for example happens far less than shaken or stunned on a vehicle). aside from that, you can destroy the pred with one good shot, but the long fangs can sit in cover while firing back, and can take the casualties.
If you would like to stun/shake my less than eighty six point predators repeatedly, sweet. My Rhinos with 200 points of angry dudes that are getting ready to punch you in the face are now 12 inches closer.... Really? I really shouldn't have to tell you that the Pred will never be shooting at marines. There are other things to shoot at you know. If a Pred kills 2 land speeders in a game (and it's fully capable of doing that) it's gained around 175% of it's points back. It's also going to contest objectives and soak up AT fire that would otherwise be directed at important things. As for the anti-horde comment, no there really aren't many things better at anti-horde for less than 86 points. Much less with AV13 and a 12 inch move.yea but your forgetting something. each one is shooting what? 8 shots. and if it's against marines you will probably get 4 wounds and the marines would probably save msot of them. If your enemy is in cover, those 8 shots seem very ineffective. There are so many other units that perform better at anti-horde than a pred. If you going to invest in a unit, make sure it can do it's work properly.
If you are going to comment on a unit's ability to do it's job, I suggest you understand the job description.
Last edited by Bathurst; December 3rd, 2009 at 02:03.
I love dakka preds. I play against a lot of eldar/air cav guard, and those autocannons are worth their weight in gold. The extra AP4 from the HBs is just icing on the cake, especially given the cost of a whole 85 points.
Dakkapreds are not a bad bargain. You can't really go wrong with an AV13 transport- killer. However, for only 30pts more, I'd rather get the vindicator. Now that vehicle threatens a whole lot more than the pred, though at shorter distances. The opponent sees a dakkapred and go "oh look...pred, better shoot down those rhinos cuz the preds aren't really much of a threat." But with the vindicator, it's "uh, oh...gotta take down those vindies before they do some real damage" and thereby, letting your rhinos slip in to do some real damage.
Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2
That's a valid point, and vindicators can do an excellent job. I prefer the dakkapred slightly over the vindy for 3 reasons:
1. Combat effectiveness: My preds mostly get 3-4 turns of shooting a game. Vindys? ... one, maybe 2
2. Points. Mech Space Wolves get expensive. Fast. The points difference isn't massive, but it's nice to have breathing room.
3. TWC+Demolisher cannon=unhealthy. It's not likely, but the one time it does happen you're gonna be pissed.
The Vindicator is a valid choice. If I was running more of a pure Rhino Rush with no TWC, I would probably use them more.
I'd prefer 2x Razorbacks to a Predator, if I've squads without transports already. Otherwise, I buy Vindicators or Whirlwinds. I find Predators to be either left behind or not firing all weapons, whereas in my mind they should be part of the mech spearhead.
Predators can easily be part of an armoured spearhead and keep up with the front line. True it requires you to forgo a couple of extra shots that turn but you trade those shots to get keep up and reposition yourself.
Once in position you can stop and unleash hell on your prefered target!
The alternative is to sit back with your preds and rain long range fire down on the enemy. Your opponent can either focus on removing the preds or on the rhinos and advancing transports approaching his lines. either way is a win for you.
Predators are awesome vehicles of destruction. The key is in using them as the situation demands and not being to rigid with them. The predators is a very flexible weapon system, you have to be to.
I got lost on the road of life
Why? i like long fangs to but not for missile launchers. In my opinon the most over hyped heavy weapon in 40K.
only a few things the daka pred CAN'T hurt and teh missile launcher isn't much better agaisnt those few thigns. A full long fang squad with missile launchers costs more than a fully tooled up dakka pred and is in my experiance much easier to kill
6 marines in power armour? mmhh hold on theymight have cover? hardly the biggest challange to remove.
nisds will send ina pack of gaunts and violla problem solved. imperial guard..mmhh how many weapons do they have that reliably kill marines? another marine squad.... 10 man dev squad will out do a 6 man long fanf. simple attrition.
Long fangs are good but lumping them with missile launchers to do a dakka preds work to me is a waste.
I got lost on the road of life
I agree w/ kakashi on the over hype of ML's, its stupid. Yes 4 frag templates is awesome, but it isnt a reliable anti tank. 3+ hit? good. AV12 5+pen? nope not me, ill stick with my more expensive, but slightly more reliable Lascannon. and for heavy its the king-> Multimelta.
and before my post gets mathhammered to death, Statistics require constant variables, dice arent constant in any case.
I can play the game and counter with... well just one melta-gun will cream the pred, 2 or higher on the damage roll and is is useless. Outflank or deepstrike X and thast 13 armor becomes an easy 10, etc, etc
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