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For a few weeks now I've been playing with a Deathwing list. I had loads of Terminator models in various bits boxes and had just bought Space Hulk, so bought a few more and assembled a 1,500 list consisting of 4-5 Terminator Squads with Belial and a Librarian. For several games now I've been varying this list slightly; trying a Dreadnought, some allied Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Inquisitor, more squads less characters, less squads more characters... but the results are always the same: crushing defeat or narrow draw.
A lot of this will come down to the common 5E lists we see these days. I've fought mechanised SM lists and a bugzilla list. My only draw was against bugzilla, where I won because my army simply didn't contain enough kill points for my opponent to win.
But even then, the army simply isn't fun. It severely lacks not only mobility, but shooting prowess. Four Assault Cannons and a handful of Storm Bolters doesn't scare anybody. Similarly, it isn't that great in assaults either. Per squad, you'll get maybe 4-5 Power Weapon/Lightning Claw attacks at I4 and 6-8 Power Fist attacks at I1. This is only the case if all five members survive and no Power Fist Terminators are taken down in assault before they get to strike. Typically, I'll kill 4-5 models in assault with a full squad.
So against any unit larger than a tactical squad, I need to hold back and whittle them down with concentrated fire before engaging in assault. The problem here is that I don't have enough units, as they get picked apart by enemy heavy fire. I'm also too slow to get out of the way and too short-ranged (24") to sit and snipe from cover.
I suppose many of these problems will be because I lack mobility, something that can be solved only be using Land Raiders. Due to point costs, each Land Raider will reduce my number of troops by 5. Which, when you only have 24 models in an army, is a lot.
So, summed up, here are my questions to you, the Space Marine players:
- How can I modify the list or play it differently to make it more effective? Pure Deathwing limits me to Terminators, Ven. Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders
- If playing pure Deathwing isn't viable, what units should I be adding to make it an effective Terminator-heavy Codex: SM army? Is this possible without using primarily TH/SS Terminators?
Please bear in mind also, that I've never really been a Space Marine player. This is my first such army and there are a lot of units I'm not familiar with. Be gentle.
A list that I have seen to be somewhat effective (it did alright at the UKGT last year) was something along the lines of-
Belial - thunder hammer and storm shield
Deathwing squad with apothecary ( the quad is mostly likely kitted for CC)
Deathing wing squad with cyclone missile (one or two terminators with CC loadout)
Deathwing squad with cyclone missile (one or two terminators with CC loadout)
Land raider crusader
That is something like 1425 so i'm not sure how the remaining points were spent.
The point is this list typically turtles in the raiders using them as gun platforms (even the crusader even though it will be heading for CC) and unleashes a devastating counter-attack the second it's opponent makes its move.
The model count is just silly, but it is all very hard to kill.
Just don't play against dark eldar.
In a deathwing list (IMO) the assault cannon is a waste, getting and serious AT gunfire from a terminator unit is a problem (whereas in a vanilla SM list that can easily be made up by devastators/tactical squads/whatever), plus it is cheaper. Armour penetration from shooting isn't so much of an issue for deathwing given the massive reliance on storm bolters, if you need to punch through armour at range you either don't go pure deathwing and starrt getting predators or whatever involved, or you say accept that it is a weakness of the list and just go and punch it to death.
Last edited by The_Outsider; December 7th, 2009 at 11:55.
IMO you're still better off with deathwing - the ability to mix weapons in a squad is a huge advantage, yet it is so often overlooked.
Last edited by The_Outsider; December 7th, 2009 at 15:15.
In regards to some of your above statements I have some rebuttles, refutations etc.
Playing deathwing is indeed viable (preferably pure or multi-wing)
Playing Dark Angels IS fun, but you have to understand, because they dont have all the new toys that SM got they're a somewhat lacking force. Meaning if you can learn to win with DA, you can win with any army (you really hone your strategy).
In regards to lists, mine were most affective when I ran a list similar to yours 5 squads, belial (command squad upgrades for his unit), and a brarian. All with assault cannons, And at least one lightning claw, and thunder hammer per squad. (termys love the CC)
But like I said above, it's a game of strategy, the most fun and successful of mine was "strong flank, weak flank" You let your opponent deploy and have his fun (your stuff is deepstriking, so whats he gonna do) and if he's like the guys I played he'll just spread his army out and around the table etc. He shouldn't be bunched, unless he's crons; or a horde army with no room i suppose (but the strategy is the same for them, you just come from the front instead of the side, and back up each turn for them) anyway back to general spread deployment. When your turn comes you deep strike but your going to deep strike everything on his weak flank, he'll be forced to react to your presence. (deep strike you're other 2 squads in that same spot by the way, strength in numbers) Fyi spread each squad about 8 inches apart when to deep strike in order to avoid mishaps.
Hope this helps, sorry if its confusing, be back for more. etc.
As a deathwing player i would not suggest a librarian. (LD... 9... those powers - make it stop)
I do whole heartedly reccommend Dreadnaughts, preferably Venerable. That adds some anti tank (and they can run behind a raider keeping out of sight if required)
Land Raiders are good for a laugh.
I also must underline that Belial MUST have thunder hammer / shield. I used to run claws until he hit a Wraithlord. No wounding with re-rolls for me.
A Chaplain is a good old Laugh, I do like a CCW squad with standard and a heavy flamer, with terminator clad chaplain in a crusader. You can rely on it to kill, well anything.
At the same time i like my shootier units to deep strike, apothecaries are great there - ignore the first failed save.
Good luck, have faith in your scatter dice for deep striking.
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
Honestly, if you wanna go all Termies, pick up the SW book and use Loganwing. They get new and improved gear, a wide variety of options, and psykers that are worth a damn. Much more interesting.
Deathwing on its own is kinda gimped, especially considering the obviously better SW alternative. They work best with Ravenwing, building off each other (RW are mobile tank busters, DW are hard and slow dakka machines) or in a DA mech army replacing Tac Squads as scoring Troops.
Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com
==Me==, Loganwing is something that has appealed to me. The only worry I have is that although the Terminator squads will be cheaper, Logan Grimnar himself is stupidly expensive. For his cost alone, I could have two Deathwing HQ's. How would you go about writing a balanced competitive Loganwing army?