Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Alright, I'll admit it. I've tried Marines once before, got tired of them and sold them. I recently reread my Codex and fell in love with Shrike. When used in tandem with Vanguard, he has the capacity to possibly triple assault (yes, people do cluster like that down here) on the first turn, and remove all three things from existence. So I was going to build an 1850 list, and I started with this.
10 Vanguard Marines- 3 Th/SS, 4 PW
10 Sternguard- 6 Combi Meltas, Drop Pod
The point is to have two HUGE threats in the opponent's deployment zone on he first turn, making them choose one or the other, then getting mauled by the one they didn't choose.
That's a lot of points, I know. I was figuring using the remainder of my points on some Scouts with CC/BP, Land Speeder Storms, and Devatators If I had enough points remaining.
Is this a good idea? Should I just go ahead and scrap it and start over?
Eldar W/D/L: 17/15/12
Ordo Malleus W/D/L: 24/3/4
Crimson Fists: In Progress
Sternguard are awesome as are Vanguard. Mix in Shrike and you got a whole lot of loving for your enemy. However, I think at that points level you would do better using a normal assault squad to do the CC duties and use the spare points to get some Tac units in and some shooty stuff.
Good luck with it.
Firstly, Kayvaan Shrike + Vanguard + JP Chappy = Xpts (where X is a very large number)
When first I saw this thread I thought, Vanguard could very easily be replaced with Assault Marines because I believe the effectiveness to point ration would be higher than if you used Vanguard. But then I read on, and discovered that people cluster a lot at your joint, and suddenly it doesn't become too bad an Idea as long as you can kill 300+ points with it. But in saying that, I don't think anyone who's fallen victim to losing three squads in one turn to this trick will ever let you do it again.
I just added the points up and over half your points total is gone. I think it could work as long as you had plenty of scouts. Like, do not spend a point on anything that cannot score for you. Perhaps you should proxy the whole thing before you go out and start buying an army that may prove to be relatively ineffective.
If you call it a Missile launcher, then it'll never hit anything.
100% of people who aren't Karmoon know Saraneth is invincible.
keep it people will say its rubbish but they dotn know or have never used vanguard swap the pw for LC there so much better and give your sgt a relicblade and s/s keep the other three th/ss as the sgts kit only costs you an extra 30 points which will makes it money back when you kill stuff
doingt what ive just said and giving your sternguard sgt a PFand 2 hvy flamers in the sternguard comes to 1100 then id go something like this
tac squad 10 man mm fl pf combi melta razorback 245 * 2 that leaves 260 to fit some land speeders maybe a small dev squad to sit with the two hvy weapon combat squads on your home obj thats how id do it anyways then you would have first turn charge and first turn annialation
oh and if your wondering about hvy flamers if you havent used them there quality against everything to be honest
hope you dont mind my two pence worth of army list that i included
i rock my world
One thing that I'd like to point out is that if you add IC's to the Vanguards, then they can't do their Heroic Intervention. That said, I'd still prefer Shrike, Chap + 10 Assault Terminators. Infiltrate with them or DS, they're still more deadly and durable as well as cheaper depending on whether you also give your vanguards jump packs.
Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2
If you're going to take Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs, you want to use Heroic Intervention. It's half the reason they're cool to begin with, it'd be a shame to get rid of that rule. I agree with the others; if you're using Shrike and you want a strong melee unit in the enemy's face, go with Assault Terminators or a simple Assault Squad. You could also consider infiltrating something like Devastators, or another unit to just get them into a great position. Don't think Shrike must use his ability to get a unit into the opponent's face so early; he can set up any unit however you want them, and that's a great ability.
I see no problem with this build as long (as it has been mentioned) as you can give them some support. I've seen to many first turn assaults turn to dust as the remainder of the oppositions army turn around and blast you to pieces.
Impy Guard are the best at the counter assault (First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! really hurts) . As long as you can support your mass assault with supporting fire (Whirlwinds, Devastators, Vindicators etc) your plan should work out fine.
Best of luck!
I would not advise it.
Vanguard are a great unit when used properly. I too often see a unit decked to the teeth, only to reclaim half their points at best, then promptly be mowed down by every weapon in their opponent's army. Two proper uses for Vanguard -- you want to use them when you need a cheaper alternative to Assault Terminators (which you cannot achieve if you overload them with wargear), or when you want a few more special weapons than a regular assault squad can offer (where you want added versatility and punch in a unit with jump packs). <--(There may be more uses, however these are the only two situations where I've seen them work)
What you propose achieves neither. It is 520 points (I am assuming you included jump packs for your vanguard) that will die very easily to rapid fire, after they win their first assault. The very same can be accomplished, with a much greater chance of survival, for far fewer points. Assault Terminators.
Having said that, if you fear you will lose the first turn assault, try toning down the Vanguard. You'll never need that many weapons, and you'll greatly increase your chances of recovering your points by having fewer points to recover.
I've recently become a fan of this thing called Dubstep. And you should too.
Datsik & Flux Pavillion - Crunch (Youtube)
Da Moo Kowz is da drinkinest Orks of dem all!
Going down the list from top to bottom. Haven't quite figured out the quoting multiple people, so I'm gonna roll with this.
@ Justice and Saraneth: I initially thought normal Assault Marines, being cheaper and all. Unfortunately, a squad of Assault marines just don't have quite the effect that the Vanguard have when you assault more than one thing on the first turn.
@ Cheeky: Relic Blade sounds good. Only thing is: If I put a SS on him, I'll be tempted to put a wound on my Mid-grade weapon. I have thought about it though.
LC aren't bad, and switching 2 PW for 2 LC on one model will give me an extra wound. I'm really thinking about it now.
If I add in 2 HF, I lose my super cool bolter rounds, don't I? The point of the combi-meltas instead of normal ones is to utilise those super-sweet shells instead of replacing them.
@ jy and Nemesis. Even with infiltrate odds are really against you to get the first turn assault with Assault Term. They vied for the spot, but Vanguard can guarantee to assault something if I go first. Also, without a sturdy way of guiding them in, Heroic Intervention is not going to happen. As cool as it is, it just won't happen.
@Squig: That's a problem, as I've burned so many points into the Vanguard, Shrike, Chaplain, and Sternguard that, as Saraneth mentioned, I don't have many points left over. If two-thirds of a game is taking objectives, then I don't have anymore opints for cool gadgets. The plan for their survival, or the sternguard, is to feed off the opponent's fear of the other, causing him to possibly split fire, or concentrate on one. If I joint assault (as I've stated is the game plan), then they shouldn't be able to murder everything, and I plan to assault tanks as well, therefore possibly leaving them in combat throughout the opponent's Shooting Phase.
@BossGoreStompa: Looks like you made the same assumption as Squig. Though dropping a few weapons may not be a bad idea, if only to cheapen thier points cost.
Also, Part of regaining your points cost is amount of damage taken. If it takes them 3 turns of firing with half the surviving army, they've made thier points, factoring in that on top of the damage they deal.
I've compiled all the ideas here and am now working on the list. This'll be V.1, where it's based off the initial rundown for the most part, incorporating a few ideas here and there. Feel free to continue giving feedback in here, but the list will be up in the army section in a couple of days. Thanks to everyone!
Eldar W/D/L: 17/15/12
Ordo Malleus W/D/L: 24/3/4
Crimson Fists: In Progress
Also, Heroic Intervention isn't that difficult to get to work; even with a scatter, you should be within 6" of the enemy. You're just hoping you don't get UNlucky, as opposed to the usual hoping to get lucky. Worst case scenario, put a locator beacon on your Drop Pod, and you should be good, right?
Just some food for thought.