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Thread: Guard Envy?

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    Member RllnMetal's Avatar
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    Guard Envy?

    Hi all,

    I started Guard back before the new codex came out and I play in a small gaming group. Iím a novice, but Iíve managed to win quite a few games in our group, and I enjoy the combination of strength and frailty that guard combines.

    I put a lot of thought into my strategy and try to continuously change my tactics and use threat to my advantage. I usually play a mixed armyÖI donít have enough chimeras or vets to play full out mech. However, it seems like the undermining reaction people have when I play is Guard = Win, regardless of strategy, and thoughtless point and shoot tactics are all that is required.

    I tend to feel that it takes a lot of calculating tactics and a good knowledge of your strengths and weaknesses in order to not turn into mush, so I wouldnít really say itís an outright easy army to play.

    I fully understand that guard has become a very versatile (and powerful) army to play, but I was just wondering if anyone else finds this mentality towards guard players to be common?


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    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    I haven't seen much of that attitude myself. Most players in my area like how many kills they can rack up against Guard even in the games they lose--there's never the frustration that comes from, say, facing Death Guard and having their bolters do nothing all game long. Also, most players in my area are grateful for the chance to play a not-another-Smurf-army.

    Possibly some of the frustration can be credited to Guard having had the most recent Codex update. Thanks to Codex Creep, 'most recent revision' tends to mean 'most competitive'. The Tyranid revision is upon us; wait and see if maybe that will take some of the heat off.

    You could offer to switch armies with the other players for a game or two. It could be very educational without causing conflict.

    Of course, it's easy to understand why other players would be envious of the Imperial Guard. We have the best fluff, most tanks, biggest guns and more dakka-per-conscript than any other army in 40k (except Orks). We're a hard act to follow.
    "My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard

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    Son of LO kevin vanrooyen's Avatar
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    Guard have had the most recent codex update? I remember something spaceish and wolvish getting a codex somewhere along the line.

    Many people in my gaming club were complaining about the IG codex, but the codex creep is never as bad in the long run as it seems at first. People just need to find those new weaknesses in your list and exploit them. When the chaos daemons codex came out for example most people at my LGS were freaking out, and we got 3 daemon players. I beat the three of the three weeks in a row.

    Just wait until the nid players come, everyone will have moved on once we get 2 codexes from our update.

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    CKO
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    Yes we are getting alot of easy wins because other armies are trying to duplicate our armies instead of their armies strengths.

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    Thinks he's a big deal rafis117's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKO View Post
    Yes we are getting alot of easy wins because other armies are trying to duplicate our armies instead of their armies strengths.
    Chimeltas are not exactly above this, my loyalist friend.

    There is the impression that the Guard are a cudgel rather than a scalpel (they are the Emperor's Fist, not His Sword!). To an extent, especially relative to other armies, this is true. If I were to lose a squad of Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, or my Wraithlord, that would constitute a major dent in my forces and possibly a crippling blow. In general with the IG, especially in Treadguard, there is a massive amount of redundancy - one of the strengths of the Guard is that they have virtually infinite troops. What is the exchange rate of Guardsmen to the enemies of the Imperium? However many it takes to get the job done. Further, the Imperial Guard can (still to an extent) field ridonculous mobs of troops on the cheap - only Orks and Tyranids are capable of matching the waves of the Imperial Guard - other factions have to be more efficient.

    But this means that other factions have a lot less margin for error. There is virtually no unit that the Imperial Guard can lose (barring Baneblades, variants of the Baneblade, and Titans) that means that they are finished; there are always three other units that can pinch-hit.

    What other faction can get 9 main battle tanks or 9 artillery pieces? What other faction can run air cavalry? (Skimmers don't count as AirCav.) What other faction can outshoot the Space Marines, Tau, and Eldar? What other faction can soak up over 100 casualties without sweating? (Note, that's a true story.) When the Imperial Guard were en masse infantry supported by expensive, but enormously powerful tanks, people liked them. There was variety, style, flair, verve, and it was fun to play against. A little frustrating when at bottom of turn 6 he has more troops than you had at the top of turn 1, but fun nonetheless. Both sides would often acknowledge the moral victory of the Guard's victims.

    Now... Chimeltas; and a few Leman Russes for good measure. Every. Single. Time. Unless it's Demo-dettas. Simply put, while the occasional gem of an Imperial servant has a well-balanced army, under the new rules, extremely durable transports are taking the field more than MBTs (Main Battle Tanks, often Heavy Support choices) and those transports, with hull-mounted flamers (one of the more powerful, and thus more spammed, weapons in 5th ed.) are loaded with Veterans armed meltas (the other 5th ed. OP weapon).

    Is there a reason for a prevalence of these lists? Yes; they work. Are they fun to play against? No. They are far too hard-hitting, especially when compared with amount of firepower that they can weather. They are also much more close, in terms of the fluff, to Space Marines than the archetypal Imperial Guard regiment.

    [/well-intentioned rant]
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    Member RllnMetal's Avatar
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    Yeah I guess Trygons popping up out of nowhere might take some focus off of the guard codex .

    I did offer to switch armies for a bit, and there was moderate interest. I played as tau in one game and it went well, and I'm supposed to play as marines down the line when the other guy I mentioned it to decides he want's to. I'm actually excited about leading a fast marine army against guard...I always get nervous when assault squads with jumpacks and skimmers with meltas get to close to my tanks! And since I know my guard armies weaknessess it will be interesting to try and exploit them.

    I think it is most likely that the new guard codex can push peoples buttons if they haven't received a codex update recently. I guess on a good side, I end up getting the urge to try really extreme lists, just to see if I can get anywhere with them.

    Yeah SW's was right after guard I believe, but I don't hear alot of complaining about them anymore...

    I thought I'd start an Eldar army as a side project since they seem drastically different, but the more armies I play against the more I like guard. It's sort of thrilling to know that you lead an army that can either blast your enemy to nothing in a few turns, or alternatively be squished if you face a really good opponent or the dice gods aren't pleased with you.

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    Thinks he's a big deal rafis117's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RllnMetal View Post
    I thought I'd start an Eldar army as a side project since they seem drastically different, but the more armies I play against the more I like guard. It's sort of thrilling to know that you lead an army that can either blast your enemy to nothing in a few turns, or alternatively be squished if you face a really good opponent or the dice gods aren't pleased with you.
    Happy to hear it! Be aware that the tanks are sub-par, many of the coolest units are ineffective, and anything that isn't Mech-dar or Stealth-dar is bound to struggle. The big secret of the Eldar? Our save and toughness suck. Like you wouldn't believe. Our BS is astonishingly low, and any good units that we have get zapped, before or after a single turn of shooting.

    Other than that... welcome!
    Terminator armor going critical would be like Three Mile Island only very, VERY angry, and carrying a hammer.
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    Member RllnMetal's Avatar
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    I can understand your perspective rafis 117, and this is usually the mentality my fellow gamers subscribe to before they even play me.

    "What other faction can outshoot the Space Marines, Tau, and Eldar?" In a small combat patrol game I played against a Tyranid player, we had a good laugh when it took 23 lasgun shots to take out 1 genestealer. I remember having a firewarrior team utterly vaporize a guard squad when they were caught in the open. I've had it take a round of shooting with and Executioner, a Bassilisk, and 30 lasgun shots to extinguish a assault squad that was hell bent on destroying my Vendetta and tanks. I've also gone multiple turns without wounding a single model. And the funny thing is this sort of dice rolling isn't that uncommon for me! The firepower of a guard army can look daunting from an opponents view and it defenitely can be, but I find that the the chances to miss or not wound can really turn the game when I'm shooting. And I make sure to shoot as much as I can otherwise I might not have another chance once my opponent reaches assault range....chimera, LRBT, or bare bone guard squad alike.

    "If I were to lose a squad of Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, or my Wraithlord, that would constitute a major dent in my forces and possibly a crippling blow." I agree with you on this one rafis117, however, I find that when ever I have an objective I'm using multiple squads or tanks to take out that target, and then I move on. I think the way a guard army is designed means that a single unit lost might not be a big blow, because in general you have to use multiple units to take out a threats, at least that has been my experience so far. As an example, it would be nice if those 4 autocannon squads worth 2 Carnifexes could take out one Carnifex in 1 round of shooting, but that's highely unlikely. Even a Vendetta, as good as they are would have a hard time taking it's points worth of Carnifex out in a round.

    "What other faction can soak up over 100 casualties without sweating? (Note, that's a true story.)" I believe you, but I believe Tyranids have this capability as well...they usually seem to outnumber me significantly even after I have a round or two of shooting.

    "Is there a reason for a prevalence of these lists? Yes; they work. Are they fun to play against? No. They are far too hard-hitting, especially when compared with amount of firepower that they can weather." To be fair I think all factions are 'guilty' of spamming proven lists (Mech Eldar...Nidzilla....Drop Podding), and I think it's all about what your opponent wishes to accomplish with the game, and everyone has a different idea of what a fun list is. However, I don't think it's very sportsman-like if I strive to bring a different list every game, specifically for variety, and I still have my tactics brushed off as "guard = win".

    The reason I chose Eldar as my second army, is because I want an army totally oposite to guard so that I can try something different and improve. Unfortunately, I find even when I offer my 25xx points worth of guard army to some people to see for themselves what it's like to play guard, they would rather continue to rant without first hand knowledge, than to try something new.

    I think you highlight some important perspectives rafiss117, and perhaps you have a guard army yourself, but I find it frustrating when some people, who have no intention on even trying guard, want to promote the idea that playing guard is an auto win.

    Well, I think this is officially a rant hehe,...I read alot of everyones post's here and I wanted to see other peoples perspectives on the subject.

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    Member RllnMetal's Avatar
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    "When the Imperial Guard were en masse infantry supported by expensive, but enormously powerful tanks, people liked them."

    I assume you're refering to the old codex, and this reminds me....When I went to buy my first box set (all excited to start a shiny new army) the guy at the GW said, ' Oh I play guard...well don't expect to win very often ha ha". Maybe this is why the old guard was more fun to play against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RllnMetal View Post
    I assume you're refering to the old codex, and this reminds me....When I went to buy my first box set (all excited to start a shiny new army) the guy at the GW said, ' Oh I play guard...well don't expect to win very often ha ha". Maybe this is why the old guard was more fun to play against.
    Yep.

    Let's be honest, under the old codex you had to play a perfect game to win. There was no forgiveness to it. If you made any mistakes, you were dead.

    Now, the IG are more forgiving. You can make a mistake or two and still pull out a narrow win if you know what you're doing. Just like Marines, Orks, and other 5th Ed armies. You want to cry that the Eldar suck? Don't let Necron or Tau players hear you. Their codexes are less forgiving than yours.
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