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  1. #1
    Member superwill's Avatar
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    The New Dreadnought Mathammer

    So, on page three of the forum there is a thread called "Dreadnought Weapon Loadouts." Since necro-posting seems to be a no-no, I thought I'd better post a new thread.

    I was wondering with the new rules on armour, whether the old mathammer shown in that thread still applies? Is the AC combo still as viable against light armour as it used me be? I am no math genius whatsoever, so there could potentially be no change in how the math works, but I thought I better just double check.

    Thanks very much!!!


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  3. #2
    LO Zealot SandWyrm's Avatar
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    I've actually written a simulation program that figures out the odds for any weapon doing various things to vehicles. While I haven't done a run for this specific case yet, I did do a series comparing different Sentinel loadouts that shows the differences between lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons. That should give you some idea how the weapons compare.

    The numbers are all posted in this article on my blog:
    http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2010/...-are-odds.html

    The Cliff-Notes version is that autocannons meet or exceed the performance of lascannons in all categories (stopped target moving, stopped target shooting, target destroyed) up to AV12. For AV13/14 a lascannon does much better in relative terms, but so poorly in absolute terms (3% kill rate vs. AV14) that I see no reason to pay the extra points for it.

    Missile launchers are 33% worse than both at killing light armor.

    It's only a 0-1 choice, but if you're using inducted marines you can take a Rifleman Dred (2 x TL Autocannons) that will kill light armor very nicely.
    Come visit my blog at: www.warstrike.org

  4. #3
    Member superwill's Avatar
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    Awesome, good to see those stats, and thanks heaps for the time, I had never thought about autocannons before. I really shouldn't have written AC, i should have specified "assault cannon." The idea was that you could take a close combat oriented dread with assault cannon and CCW and it would still be good at punching armour, except for higher armour and distance. Just wanted to check whether it had changed.

  5. #4
    LO Zealot SandWyrm's Avatar
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    Ah!

    I'll run these tests through my program tonight so we can talk about real numbers instead of interpretations.
    Come visit my blog at: www.warstrike.org

  6. #5
    LO Zealot SandWyrm's Avatar
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    I lied, I did it right away.

    Here's the numbers, maybe someone else will have the time to put it in table form:

    ---------------------------------

    1 BS4 Marine Codex Assault Cannon:

    Vs. Ork Trukk ( AV10 Open Topped )
    Stopped Target Movement: 71% (Stunned, Immobilized, Wrecked, or Explosion)
    Stopped Target Firing: 74% (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed, Wrecked, or Explosion)
    Destroyed Target: 44% (Wrecked or Explosion)
    Did Nothing to Target: 20%

    Vs. Chimera Side ( AV10 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 60%
    Stopped Target Firing: 74%
    Destroyed Target: 28%
    Did Nothing to Target: 20%

    Vs. Rhino ( AV11 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 43%
    Stopped Target Firing: 56%
    Destroyed Target: 15%
    Did Nothing to Target: 37%

    Vs. Chimera Front ( AV12 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 27%
    Stopped Target Firing: 32%
    Destroyed Target: 14%
    Did Nothing to Target: 62%

    Vs. Russ Side ( AV13 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 25%
    Stopped Target Firing: 32%
    Destroyed Target: 10%
    Did Nothing to Target: 62%

    Vs. Russ Front ( AV14 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 16%
    Stopped Target Firing: 23%
    Destroyed Target: 5%
    Did Nothing to Target: 74%

    ---------------------------------

    1 BS4 DH Codex Assault Cannon:

    Vs. Ork Trukk ( AV10 Open Topped )
    Stopped Target Movement: 60%
    Stopped Target Firing: 63%
    Destroyed Target: 35%
    Did Nothing to Target: 30%

    Vs. Chimera Side ( AV10 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 50%
    Stopped Target Firing: 63%
    Destroyed Target: 21%
    Did Nothing to Target: 30%

    Vs. Rhino ( AV11 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 34%
    Stopped Target Firing: 46%
    Destroyed Target: 11%
    Did Nothing to Target: 47%

    Vs. Chimera Front ( AV12 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 16%
    Stopped Target Firing: 25%
    Destroyed Target: 0%
    Did Nothing to Target: 70%

    Vs. Russ Side ( AV13 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 0%
    Stopped Target Firing: 0%
    Destroyed Target: 0%
    Did Nothing to Target: 100%

    Vs. Russ Front ( AV14 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 0%
    Stopped Target Firing: 0%
    Destroyed Target: 0%
    Did Nothing to Target: 100%

    -----------------------------------

    1 BS4 Twin-Linked Autocannon

    Vs. Ork Trukk ( AV10 Open Topped )
    Stopped Target Movement: 73%
    Stopped Target Firing: 75%
    Destroyed Target: 44%
    Did Nothing to Target: 17%

    Vs. Chimera Side ( AV10 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 60%
    Stopped Target Firing: 75%
    Destroyed Target: 29%
    Did Nothing to Target: 17%

    Vs. Rhino ( AV11 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 47%
    Stopped Target Firing: 61%
    Destroyed Target: 19%
    Did Nothing to Target: 31%

    Vs. Chimera Front ( AV12 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 27%
    Stopped Target Firing: 37%
    Destroyed Target: 10%
    Did Nothing to Target: 56%

    Vs. Russ Side ( AV13 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 14%
    Stopped Target Firing: 23%
    Destroyed Target: 0%
    Did Nothing to Target: 72%

    Vs. Russ Front ( AV14 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 0%
    Stopped Target Firing: 0%
    Destroyed Target: 0%
    Did Nothing to Target: 100%

    -----------------------------------

    1 BS4 Missile Launcher

    Vs. Ork Trukk ( AV10 Open Topped )
    Stopped Target Movement: 45%
    Stopped Target Firing: 46%
    Destroyed Target: 24%
    Did Nothing to Target: 44%

    Vs. Chimera Side ( AV10 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 35%
    Stopped Target Firing: 46%
    Destroyed Target: 15%
    Did Nothing to Target: 44%

    Vs. Rhino ( AV11 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 28%
    Stopped Target Firing: 37%
    Destroyed Target: 11%
    Did Nothing to Target: 55%

    Vs. Chimera ( AV12 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 20%
    Stopped Target Firing: 28%
    Destroyed Target: 7%
    Did Nothing to Target: 67%

    Vs. Russ Side ( AV13 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 13%
    Stopped Target Firing: 18%
    Destroyed Target: 4%
    Did Nothing to Target: 78%

    Vs. Russ Front ( AV14 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 6%
    Stopped Target Firing: 9%
    Destroyed Target: 0%
    Did Nothing to Target: 89%

    -----------------------------------

    1 BS4 Twin-Linked Lascannon

    Vs. Ork Trukk ( AV10 Open Topped )
    Stopped Target Movement: 72%
    Stopped Target Firing: 74%
    Destroyed Target: 40%
    Did Nothing to Target: 11%

    Vs. Chimera Side ( AV10 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 57%
    Stopped Target Firing: 74%
    Destroyed Target: 25%
    Did Nothing to Target: 11%

    Vs. Rhino ( AV11 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 47%
    Stopped Target Firing: 62%
    Destroyed Target: 20%
    Did Nothing to Target: 26%

    Vs. Chimera Front ( AV12 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 37%
    Stopped Target Firing: 50%
    Destroyed Target: 15%
    Did Nothing to Target: 41%

    Vs. Russ Side ( AV13 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 27%
    Stopped Target Firing: 37%
    Destroyed Target: 10%
    Did Nothing to Target: 56%

    Vs. Russ Front ( AV14 )
    Stopped Target Movement: 17%
    Stopped Target Firing: 25%
    Destroyed Target: 5%
    Did Nothing to Target: 70%

    -----------------------------------

    Looks to me like the autocannon wins vs. anything but a Codex Marine assault cannon. You can decide if giving up a CCW is worth what the missile launcher can add.
    Last edited by SandWyrm; January 15th, 2010 at 21:30. Reason: removed inadvertant emoticons
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  7. #6
    Member superwill's Avatar
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    Awesome, that's excellent. The only thing is I don't quite understand your conclusion. To me it appears that the lascannon is better than the autocannon. It has a lower chance of doing nothing in every single category, and from armour 11 upwards it has a higher chance of destroying. I would say that it is even better than the assault cannon for exactly the same reasons, plus range is a bonus. Either I'm reading it wrong, or we differ on our definition of which is better?

    Also, those missile launcher stats arent' terrible either, so I'm gonna take them too. Thanks heaps for that!

  8. #7
    LO Zealot SandWyrm's Avatar
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    Yes, but the lascannon isn't better enough to warrant it's points premium over the autocannon. Sure, it has a chance vs. AV14, but it's not good enough in absolute terms to be worth it. Not when 2 IST meltas will have 6x the performance.
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  9. #8
    Member superwill's Avatar
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    Touche. But I just consider the added advantage of having it on a dreadnought and able to fire from so far away so much more dependable than a lightly armoured suicide unit who sometimes have to venture right into the heart of the enemy to bust the tank, and even if they are able to bust one they are likely to get instantly killed anyway. Worth the extra points IMHO.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Ignis's Avatar
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    Thanks for the Mathammer :-)!
    I use TLLC // ML ...
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  11. #10
    jy2
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    Too bad DH dreads can't take TLAC/TLAC like vanilla marines and space wolves. That's the best for light-AT.
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