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When recently writing up an army list I was wondering which was better - to take more PAGK or some GKT. Well, I did some maths, and since I've already written it up I thought I might share my maths findings (don't worry, there is a conclusion down the bottom if you don't want to follow the maths.) I won't spell out the calculations, so if you have a question about how I reached a certain mathematical figure, please ask and I will draw it out. Especially since I haven't double checked these things yet.
Edit: a more realistic comparison is displayed further below.
I've compared 370 points of GKT with 375 points of PAGK. The squads are as follows:
1 GM + 5 GKT retinue
7 PAGK (1 just) + 6 PAGK (1 just)
I realise that these aren't necessarily the ideal units, but they were the options I was considering.
I've compared them in three categories, each is compared to 10 MEQs. The first is how they would fare when charging, then secondly if they were charged (true grit affects this.) It takes into account initiative priority, these are hypothetical "math" battles. Without further ado:
On the charge:
Terminators: Inflict 11.11 wounds on MEQs, 0.3 wounds are taken in return (13.5 points worth)
PAGK: Inflict 7.41 wounds on MEQs, take 0.83 wounds in return (20.8 points worth)
Terminators: Inflict 8.35 wounds on MEQs, take 0.60 wounds in return (27 points worth)
PAGK: Inflict 7.41 wounds on MEQs, take 1.66 wounds in return (41.66 points worth)
Being charged by 10 MEQs with power-weapons
Terminators: Inflict 8.35 wounds on MEQs, take 3 wounds in return (135 points worth)
PAGK: Inflict 7.41 wounds on MEQs, take 5 wounds in return (125 points worth)
The terminators outperformed the PAGK in every single area. For those who think the terminators are a point sink, these stats show that in CC they are actually more cost efficient than PAGK. Of course, the PAGK gain value because you get more stormbolter shots and they can be taken as troops. This is purely if you were looking for the most effective CC unit.
FWIW, if the enemys armour save and toughness were worse, I imagine the stats would be much more favourable to the PAGK. Also please note that either way, our troops are monsters in CC! I was stunned by the stats, especially considering that MEQs are considered quite capable of holding their own in combat. Go GKs.
Alright, here is the alternate setup. BC+4 GKT up against 8 PAGK and a justicar. Again, they're up against 10 Space Marines.
On the charge
Term: Inflict 9.06 wounds, take 0.415 back (18.67 points worth)
PAGK: Inflict 4.63 wounds, take 0.83 (20.75 points)
Term: Inflict 6.23, take 0.83 (37.35 points)
PAGK: Inflict 4.63 wounds, take 1.66 in return (41.5 points)
Charged by power weapons
Term: Inflict 6.23, take 4.16 wounds in return (187 points)
PAGK: Inflict 4.63, take 5 wounds in return (125 points)
Again, the GKT have won in all the same areas. Offensively the margin is probably greater than the earlier set-up, but losses seem greater due to the missing GM attacking at a higher initiative. I would say that this set-up is probably more ideal for the GKT than having the grand master, but I will do another comparing the two later on.
Last edited by superwill; February 2nd, 2010 at 11:57.
Without bothering to think through the maths here ... why do the PAGKs take 5 times as many wounds from 20 attacks as they do from 10?
It's also worth saying that if you are going to compare the value of GKT against PAGK - don't strap an expensive GM character onto the GKT squad, it inflates their price.
A BC and 4 GKT are roughly the same cost as a Justicar and 8 PAGK.
You cant really compare GKT are ment for taking out other elites while the PAGKs are ment for taking out mass units.
Space marines 6 dread army Wins: 4 ties:2 Loses:7 Modified Standard nilla marines Wins:37 Ties:8 Loses 42 Daemonhunters Wins:3 Ties:0 Loses:1 Full assualt concept army wins: 6 Ties: none Loses: 2
Also, I seriously doubt all those models would make it into CC. The Terminators, being high profile targets, would be eating a lot of rapid-fire or (if the enemy is lucky) ranged fire.
Eldar W/D/L: 17/15/12
Ordo Malleus W/D/L: 24/3/4
Crimson Fists: In Progress
Ah... my bad! Must have misread my calculator or something, the first three was meant to be an eight. So, it should be 0.83 wounds taken. Thanks for picking that up, edited appropriately.
Also, like I said, and as Drayken mentioned, the configuration of squads was not ideal, I just put these up because I had already typed them up and thought I'd share what I'd found. Also, in terms of the GM not being the best idea, he still brings some good value to the squad purely because of his Initiative. He kills about 2.5 marines before they strike back, which means if they have charged, they only get 15 attacks instead of 20 if it were a brother captain. Yeah, maybe its still not quite as valuable, but as I said, I was just comparing the two for personal reasons and thought there's no harm in showing my findings.
I'll run the scenario on the suggested BC+4 GKT vs Just+8 PAGK when I get home.
Also, DHNEWBIE's comment that you can't compare GKT to PAGK is somewhat true, as I said in the OP the PAGK would work better against hordes of low toughness and weak armour, but this was to see how they fare against MEQs. Standard marines are hardly "other elites."
Last edited by superwill; February 2nd, 2010 at 09:53.
I've done the requested comparison, and posted results above. Next I will do the GKT with GM vs GKT with BC. I hope that my long post isn't too hard to read. If the mods don't like it they can alter it or ask me to alter it in any way.
Last edited by superwill; February 2nd, 2010 at 12:02.
One thing you should factor in is that the GK's will shoot (assume only regular stormbolters) before assaulting. This will increase the PAGK's number slightly as they have more shots than the GKT's.
Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2
With SB shots your looking at the PAGK gaining 2 extra kills, while the GKT only gain 1. (against MEQ)
Also being charged by PW's for instance Howling Banshees: (pretty sure HB's have counter charge too anyway, and this isn't with doom!)
3.4 GKT die before they can strike back (Leaving 2) 2.7 kills done
5.1 PAGK die before they can strike back (Leaving 4) 2.2 kills done
But if you use your SB's GKT will kill 2.2 HB's, while PAGK will kill 3.9, which means the PAGK force a moral test.
This is even more situational, since I'm chosing a specific enemy unit to test these figures against, but it does represents the fact that some units you don't want to go into CC with and will be better off mowing down with SB's till a charge will finish them, in which case PAGK can be more valuable!
Also if you assume your GK forces are charging from a LR variant (which is common) it changes again! (probably will include an incin in this case)
Not 100% sure on my figures as they are done extremely quickly, but thought I'd provide the answer to the SB question, and a more specific example of GKT against specialist CC units and how it can turn out