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BC is generally considered better value, GM considered more monstrous. Let's have a look at the maths. I've run them in 3 scenarios, the third being with a master-crafted weapon. They are up against 10 basic space marines.
The squads points sizes are slightly favouring the BC, but as close as they can be:
BC+GKTx6 = 334
GM+GKTx4 = 325
- 12.22 inflicted (122 points worth)
- 0.42 taken (18.9 points)
(These ratios mean that for every 1 point they lose, they are taking 6.4 points off the enemy. The higher the number on the right, the better.)
- 9.45 inflicted (94.5)
- 0.3 taken (13.5)
- 8.33 inflicted (83.3)
- 0.83 taken (37.3)
- 6.67 inflicted (66.7)
- 0.65 taken (29.2)
Charged, with master-crafted weapon
- 9.34 inflicted (93.4)
- 0.83 taken (37.4)
- 8.01 inflicted (80.1)
- 0.53 taken (23.85)
I think we are all suprised by these statistics. The GM actually adds more to the point ratio than the BC and two GKT that he replaces, due to his high initiative. The BC's squad does more damage, but the GM's lose less wounds. Even though they already win the stat battle, there are the added bonuses of the GMs squad being able to absorb wounds without decreasing in attacks, and also the force weapon which is one of his best assets.
For me, this shows that against MEQs, the GM is definitely not a waste of points. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about my findings! And also please note, I'm not saying that the GM is better in all circumstances, just those simulated. Without running any numbers, I'm fairly confident that against hordes of lesser troops, the BC would be a better choice.
Last edited by superwill; February 3rd, 2010 at 22:58.
I think you should run it with 2 GKTs on the BC just to see what you'd get. Go for similar points values. The higher initiative though really is what makes the GM shine in most cases. For example, big nasties. Trygon's are only initiative 4 :3
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Not quite sure what you want me to compare? The BC to two GKT? If so the GKT would win, no maths required, they have the same stats except for number of attacks where the combined GKT win. If you were meaning kit out the BC with wargear till he was the same amount of points as 2 GKTs, I could potentially do that. Or did you want me to do multiple GKT vs multiple BC till the points were roughly even? Let me know what it was you meant and I'll happily math-hammer it
I like the fact that the GM has a higher BS over the BC...(not that it matters)
A BC + 2 GKTs costs 154 pts. A naked GM costs 145 pts. They are, for all intents and purposes, identical in cost.
And the BC/GKT "package" is FAR superior to the GM in every way that matters.
* You get the same number of wounds but no threat of instant death.
* You get twice as many CC attacks.
* You get thrice as many shots.
All the GM can offer in superiority is a better pip in Initiative. Which is useless against EVERY dedicated CC unit in the game. They're all as fast or faster than the GM.
And the GM's Force Weapon is just not a game changer. If you can't kill a monstrous creature or character with 10 GKT attacks (from the BC package on the charge) then you have far bigger problems than even the DH force weapon can solve for you. You have to realize that GKTs in general are nothing more than elite assault infantry. They are not among the game's best assault infantry, not by a long shot. So there are some fights that you shouldn't put any GKTs in -- BC, GM, or otherwise.
So point for point, the BC package is far superior and more useful in almost all game situations than the GM.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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number6 raises all the good points. A GM is only worth it if you have the points to spare, which is very rarely in the case of a DH army.
Just to remind you though, its not all doom-and-gloom. While they aren't the most powerful troops/elites in assault or Shooting, they are the most astutely verstatile, which I think is alot better. I can't think of any other units that can both outgun and out-CC them.
I'm still waiting on a GK HQ or Special Character that represent our troops just as well.
It depends on the application. The GM is better against uber-characters and especially against chaos if equipped right (sacred incense). The fact that his GKT's form a retinue means he is not as easily insta-killed with pfists, though his retinue would take the brunt of the damage. I've tried both and I would say it all depends on your opponent's army composition.
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I dunno about that number 6. The very thing these stats show is that the BC+GKT is not far superior to the GM in EVERY way that matters. The only difference in between the two groups I simulated is the GM against the BC+2GKT, so the fact that the GM wins the stat ratio in every category is only because of himself. I wouldn't say that they're slower than "EVERY dedicated CC unit in the game." Firstly, you've got SM and CSM which are initiative 4, even the dedicated CC units e.g assault squads/terminators/honour guard/command squads etc. This in itself is a large portion of the armies that you come up against. Then necron's dedicated CC unit the flayed ones (plus their lords), and some of daemons main dedicated CC units the bloodletters/flesh hounds, as well as all tyranid gaunts, gargoyles and warriors, which are often dedicated CC, are all initiative 4 too. Even seraphim and arco-flaggelants (WH dedicated combat units) are initiative 4, as well as other DH CC units (GK+daemonhost.) Obviously both eldar and dark eldar are quicker, and orks, tau and IG are slower. And that's all armies. So that's 7 armies that are largely, though obviously not entirely, initiative 4 in their CC units and 5 that aren't. So I don't think you can quite say it's "useless against EVERY dedicated CC unit in the game" like you did.
Secondly, whilst immunity to instant death is nice, I would still prefer the ability to absorb wounds without losing a third of my output, or any for that matter. Especially because even on one wound the GM has greater output against MEQs than the other three at full health, considering what the stats show.
In terms of doing a shooting comparison, I can tell you that the extra BS will not be enough to even come close to matching the two extra stormbolters. Sorry guys, there really isn't any point in running the numbers as this is definitely the undisputed advantage of having the extra GKT. IF you were to give them both a psycannon, then we might have a battle on our hands, but even then there's no way one extra BS will make up for 2 stormbolters.
Thanks for your feedback guys, I wasn't quite sure how well maths would go down, because there are so many variables and it is being run in such specific scenarios.
Wait wait wait... I find it very interesting/ironic, because the comparison firstly should be a GM vs a BC+2GKT, any other form of comparison other than a pure GM vs BC is meaningless.
Secondly, the BC+GKT are way ahead in attack numbers in comparison to the GM, which is extremely important because even if you lose a single GK your still ahead in attack #'s, not to mention the fact your gaining bonus shots coming into combat as stated by number6. Also assuming you get the charge, which you kinda hope you would be, your benefiting even more.
Then you can look at the fact a BC is most often equipped with a Psycannon as its pretty much considered the optimum loadout, and the story changes again, I mean you can get for just 15ish points more than a GM a BC +Psy and a GKT+Psy
Also don't do mathhammer if your not going to include the possibility of a round of shots before charging. It is extremely important for both GKT and PAGK.
If your not going to look at the whole picture accurately don't do mathhammer, it doesn't bring anything to the community, and I at least don't really like to see people being misguided by people touting the religion that mathhammer seems to be.