Autocannons and a question about mathhammer (useing them as tank hunters?) - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Autocannons and a question about mathhammer (useing them as tank hunters?)

    I stumbled across this when I was running the numbers for for a Assault cannon (Ass.C) vs a Autocannon (AC) and a twinlinked Autocannon (TLAC) when it came to bringing down transports. I firstly dont know the accuracy of all my math, i might be wrong if I am please point it out.

    Firstly the Autocannon

    Marines hit (2/3) of the time TL takes that too (8/9) and a Autocannon has 2 shots so its 2(2/3) or 2(8/9) will hit.

    Different armour values come into play and possible damage, as well as Pentrating hits (Pens) and glances
    AV10= Pen = 1/2 Glance = 1/6
    AV11= Pen = 1/3 Glance = 1/6
    AV12= Pen = 1/6 Glance = 1/6
    AV13= Pen = N/A Glance = 1/6
    Av14= Pen = N/A Glance =

    If it Pens the most advantages results(s):
    (1/3) chance of destroying them
    (1/6) Immobilising them

    If it Glances the most advantages result(s):
    (1/6) Immobilising

    So against AV10 Transport (against a GunTank almost any result is advantages even shaking them means they wont be shooting next turn, where as shaking a transport wont slow it down, stunning them might but instead of including this I have chosen to ignore it altogether.)

    A AC has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (2(2/3)(1/2)(1/3))+(2(2/3)(1/2)(1/6))+(2(2/3)(1/6)(1/6))

    =.37037 *100 = 37.03% Chance

    A TLAC has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (2(8/9)(1/2)(1/3))+(2(8/9)(1/2)(1/6))+(2(8/9)(1/6)(1/6))

    =.4938 *100 = 49.38% Chance

    Note: before I continue, if someone could confirm that this math is correct if it isn't could you point out how to correctly do it. If it is correct again let me know ill edit this post to include the rest.


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    Member milanwashear's Avatar
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    u must bring into account that Assault cannon has two extra shots and it is rending so it has the ability to pop landraiders the most heavily armored tank in the game and its better at taking down a landraider then a lasscannon but the Autocannons dose hav range which is good for wanting to take down transport but personally i take Assault cannons they hav great versatility and that its the space marines greatest strength

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    Toy Soldier Aficionado Wolf Guard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanwashear View Post
    u must bring into account that Assault cannon has two extra shots and it is rending so it has the ability to pop landraiders the most heavily armored tank in the game and its better at taking down a landraider then a lasscannon but the Autocannons dose hav range which is good for wanting to take down transport but personally i take Assault cannons they hav great versatility and that its the space marines greatest strength

    Assault Cannon= has a 15% chance to get a Penetrating hit on a land raider.

    Lascannon= has a 10% chance to get the penetrating hit on a land raider

    5% chance doesn't worrent (In my opinion) me paying the extra points for an assault cannon.
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    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Guard View Post
    5% chance doesn't worrent (In my opinion) me paying the extra points for an assault cannon.
    In the few cases where you have a choice between an assault cannon or a lascannon (Razorback turrets and Dreadnoughts) they are identically priced, or the assault cannon is in fact cheaper. Successive SM codices have consistently overpriced lascannons so that even with the 5th ed Rending nerf and price hike, assault cannons are often the more cost-effective option.

    I should also point out to the OP that you are comparing a regular assault cannon and a twin-linked autocannon. That's why the autocannon came out looking better. Crunch the numbers for a twin-linked assault cannon and you might get something different.
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    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle View Post
    I should also point out to the OP that you are comparing a regular assault cannon and a twin-linked autocannon.
    Nope, his numbers tell me that he compared an autocannon to a twin-linked autocannon. So do his abbreviations. The OP uses "Ass.C" to designate assault cannons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince666 View Post
    before I continue, if someone could confirm that this math is correct if it isn't could you point out how to correctly do it. If it is correct again let me know ill edit this post to include the rest.
    Your math is correct so far. Note, though, that if you are not comparing AP1 to AP2+ weapons, or comparing weapons with the Tank Hunters special rule to those without, the chances to hurt the vehicle on glancing and penetrating hits is exactly the same. You do not have to factor that in. All you have to do is compare to hit, to glance, and to pen. Which has been done more than once for all the weapons, and I'm sure you can find your numbers everywhere on the internet. To compare the same weapon twin-linked and not twin-linked you only have to compare the to hit chances...

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    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Nope, his numbers tell me that he compared an autocannon to a twin-linked autocannon. So do his abbreviations. The OP uses "Ass.C" to designate assault cannons.
    Why would you bother comparing the numbers on an autocannon and a twin-linked autocannon? You already know the twin-linked one is better.
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    Alright thanks Red for answering the question.

    Now the Assault cannon (not a twin linked Autocannon)

    4(2/3)

    AV10= Pen = 1/3 Glance = 1/6
    AV11= Pen = 1/6 Glance = 1/6
    AV12= Pen = 1/6 Glance =
    AV13= Pen = (1/6)(2/3) Glance = (1/6)(1/3)
    Av14= Pen = (1/6)(1/3) Glance = (1/6)(1/3)

    If it Pens the most advantages results(s):
    (1/3) chance of destroying them
    (1/6) Immobilising them

    If it Glances the most advantages result(s):
    (1/6) Immobilising

    AV10 Transport

    A Assault Cannon has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (4(2/3)(1/3)(1/3))+(4(2/3)(1/3)(1/6))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(1/6))

    = 8/27 chance of destrying it and a 2/9 of making it immobile.
    = 51.85%


    AV11

    A Assault Cannon has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (4(2/3)(1/6)(1/3))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(1/6))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(1/6))

    = 4/27 chance of destrying it and a 4/27 of making it immobile.
    = 29.62%


    AV12 (Note: An Assault Cannon can only Pen Armour 12, needing a 6 to glance which rends they adding another D3 etc

    A Assault Cannon has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (4(2/3)(1/6)(1/3))+(4(2/3)(1/3)(1/6))

    = 4/27 chance of destrying it and a 2/27 of making it immobile/destroying a weapon
    = 22.22%

    AV13 Note rending comes into play, once rolling a 6 on Armour Pen getting another D3 so (2/3) of the time you will pen (1/3) of the time you will glance.

    A Assault Cannon has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (4(2/3)(1/6)(2/3)(1/3))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(2/3)(1/6))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(1/3)(1/6))

    = 8/81 chance of destrying it and a 2/27 of making it immobile/destroying a weapon
    = 17.28%

    AV14

    A Assault Cannon has the following chance of inflicting and advantages result on a transport
    (4(2/3)(1/6)(1/3)(1/3))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(1/3)(1/6))+(4(2/3)(1/6)(1/3)(1/6))

    = 4/81 chance of destrying it and a 4/81 of making it immobile/destroying a weapon
    = 9.87%

    A TLAC by Comparison only wins out against AV11, cant damage AV14 but with twice the range could get at least twice as many times to shoot.

    AV10= 49.38%
    AV11= 34.56%
    AV12= 19.75%
    AV13= 4.93%

    So Comparing an Assault Cannon with A Twin Link Autocannon, what have your experinces been with them? do you use them at all? Going on the positives and negatives you can think of what one would you choose given the choice??

  9. #8
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle View Post
    Why would you bother comparing the numbers on an autocannon and a twin-linked autocannon? You already know the twin-linked one is better.
    Don't kill the messenger...

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince666 View Post
    So Comparing an Assault Cannon with A Twin Link Autocannon, what have your experinces been with them? do you use them at all? Going on the positives and negatives you can think of what one would you choose given the choice??
    You can't globally say that either the assault cannon or the twin-linked autocannon is better than the other. You need to consider context: what unit will the weapon be on, what is its price, how does it fit in with the rest of my army? Range (in which the twin-linked autocannon is definitely superior) is nothing you can weigh off against killing power (in which the assault cannon -against all non-vehicles and even most vehicles- is better),you have to decide where your priorities are.
    I assume you are considering these weapons as armament for a dreadnought. My advice in that case would be: take the assault cannon if your dreadnought drop pods, stick with the twin-linked assault cannon if not. It depends on the rest of its loadout, though - just a rule of thumb.

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