Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Well I really like space marines i'm a huge fan of their models and the different chapters, especially the novels.
I'm now at a crossroads however. I'm a modeller and painter, rather then a gamer but I have recently joined a gaming community and was wanting to start a new marine army and managed to whittle it down to 2. The blood angels and Black templers.
I like blood angels because they have cool imagery and the new models look good but the problem with them is there new rules, are to me a bit over the top, it seems they've taken away any weaknesses from marines or at least minimised them, it just makes them seem to easy and a bit boring to play, which I feel would make me lose interest in them.
The Black templers again have a very nice look to them and i enjoy there story. However I am not sure about there rules though. I know they are close combat orientated and that they have an old codex. I was wondering if they would still be able to hold there own against all the new upgraded armies though Because again if I find myself being outmatched everytime due to an old ruleset I'll probably lose interest again.
So I was just hoping for some help and opinions from others.
Thanks for any input.
I think saying that playing BA minimizes the downfalls of marines and makes them too boring or easy to play is a bit of an overreaction.
That being said, sure they have some really nasty and cool units that the Vanilla codex doesn't have (and retain some units that are a bit out of character *cough* Sternguard *cough*), but they aren't super marines. For one all their vehicles cost slightly more (i think, correct me if im wrong) in order to move faster, which could be seen either way. Many of their new shiny units of characters arent as good as they seem. Also, they in general are an assault oriented army, though i would argue that the new dex makes them a fast manuverable army more than a dead killy assault army, but thats just me ranting.
BT are also a cc army in general, and like BA have some nifty rules to help em out in cc. generally the BT are footsloggers unless given transports, and can sport basic troop options with lots of warm bodies (scouts as neopytes in the squads). They also have the emporeres champion which is slick, there codex is old compared to BA/SW/SM, but isnt too terribad (See: Dark Eldar). While they dont get assault marines as troops like BA, they can and should bring some assault marines, though im unsure whether or not of the point cost-effectivness compared to BA assault marines, as their codex is a bit old.
All in all i think you desicion should be made on backstory more than anything else, as ferocious marines that crave combat and occasianally get a taste for blood (and whatever else fluff the new dex brought) are quite different from crusaders who are hell bent on having the emperor forgive them, chaining their weponry to themselves to ensure the ability to fight to the last breath.
unfortunetly im not very well versed on the fluff of either chapters, so good luck choosing, either one will be a blast
My buddy runs BT. I think they're very viable, particularly in their foot slogging form. Crusader squads are very tough, can move fast when angered, (and they get angry!) and they're killy.
Not a fan of the all black and white, though. Shrug
black templars are a little outdated so suffer from alot of things they shouldnt (more expensive vehicles and wargear, no stock standard grenades on units etc...)but they have good things too like being able to gain addtional movement when you shoot at them, take mixed squads with scouts and MEQ units, and finally the emporers champion (which you are forced to take) is not only a great cheap character, he can take a vow which gives your whole army prefered enemy (re-rolls to hit in CC), combine that with furious charge and pretty much nothing can beat you in close combat, a whole army with prefered enemy is a huge advantage (if the new blood angels codex could get that on top of all the other stuff they have, they'd be unbeatable.)
They have a few things going for them - no-one's used to the codex yet, and there are a bunch of fancy new models. But if you don't like the idea of an assault marine army you're probably not going to like them very much.The BT codex is very fun, full of great fluff and also quite well-balanced, especially when compared with the new SW and BA codices. I've always wanted to play around with it but could never spare the time or parts to convert such large numbers of footslogging Marines. The biggest problem it has is that it is balanced, whereas armies like Orks, SW and BA all suffer from a massive over-focus on a few very efficient units to the detriment of the rest of the army list. So while the BT list is nice and well-rounded it's at a disadvantage against the newer 5th edition armies. One really big thing is power fists; BT don't have veteran sergeants, and the change in the PF rules mean that the hidden power fist gets a grand 1 attack per turnThe Black templers again have a very nice look to them and i enjoy there story. However I am not sure about there rules though. I know they are close combat orientated and that they have an old codex. I was wondering if they would still be able to hold there own against all the new upgraded armies though Because again if I find myself being outmatched everytime due to an old ruleset I'll probably lose interest again.
That said, the BT codex has a lot of great old things that 5th edition did away with, like adamantine mantles, Rites of Battle, terminator command squads, three-wound Chaplains, Terminator honours, and the old dual-price wargear system - power fists on one-wound models are ten points cheaper than in CM, for example. And, of course, you can get army-wide Preferred Enemy for a very appreciable price. Preferred Enemy was buffed massively in 5th edition. The downside to this is that you don't get Sternguard, Ironclads or relic blades (except on your Champion), which are the three tastiest things in the new SM codex.
But it is an old codex and you will probably be handicapped. You basically have to play mech to be competitive, which kind of negates the whole twenty-man-Crusader-squad thing that was so great about them in 4th edition - back when people looooved footslogging hordes of infantry - as well as the Righteous Zeal movement which they won't be getting if they're in a transport. Transports which are more expensive than they are in the new codices. Anyway. It's the changes in the core rules that cause the problem - the BT codex is geared for 4th edition, but not 5th edition, which is a very different beast.
As I said before, what you can do is get BP+CCW marines and a few Rhinos and feasibly proxy them as a mech BT army or a mech BA army. That way you can play around with which one you prefer before making a decision.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
Thanks to everyone for their help I'm am very grateful. I think I'll end up going with the Black Templers as i do really like there back story and, they still sound like they can hold there own. I think I probably did over react about the blood angrels I agree, just was a bit of a shock when I saw their army buffs, but it's all just theory anyway till we se it on the tabletop, so I apologise for pigeon holing them. Anyway I think I'll go with the templers I feel there style suits me more. Thanks again for all the help guys.
Shouldn't forget, BT get tank hunter venerable dreads if they want them, and furious charge termies which can be pretty devastating. Also their smoke launchers work the old way, causing glancing hits, which some people prefer.
They've got a lot of old gear and rules that has been phased out for the newer marine armies - that's the big thing I like about them.
That, and the Holy Orbs of Antioch. Can't go wrong.
Black Templar are one of my favorite codices still, if for no better reason than the fact that they still have the relic that was once known as "veteran skills". But while the nostalgic part of me sincerely misses the old way that we could customize squads, another part of me recognizes that the same effect is being worked upon (and I predict will be realized by 6e) and will be made real as more 5e codices are released. With that being said, BT are still viable and extremely fun to play with / against even to this day. Though there are certainly disadvantages to the army as they are not designed congruent to the 5e meta-game, their rules still allow for flavorful and socially-competitive army lists. Plus they have one of the best model ranges released thus far, IMO, and all of the potential to become that much better with the next iteration of their codex, which could be soon coming.
Blood Angels on the other hand are the most recently updated army. They have the newest rules, and as per the trend of new codex releases, new ways to play. These have been largely untested thus far, and so I assure you that all of the "omg broken" hype will soon change tunes, as player's learn how to play against their new style of play. I personally am rather excited about the new codex, not because I am a bandwagon fanboy, but because the new rules and models presented best fit how I intended my home-brew Chapter to be played.. and that is really the only reason I've mentioned them.. to introduce to you a third option.
Home-brew chapters are, I believe, much more rewarding for the sort of hobbyist you've described yourself as. If your love is modeling and painting, then what could be more rewarding than designing every minute detail yourself in such a way that it expresses yourself? Unless you are absolutely dedicated to a particular Chapter, this seems to be the way to go. What's more, if your love is modeling and painting, then playing on the table-top is not much more than a reward for your job well done.. and as you've expressed the fear of losing interest in the hobby.. you could very feasibly write your own fluff such that it can be represented by any of the various codices released. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with playing like this, as your fear is a very real one.. you will eventually, for periods of time, find yourself attached to an outdated and ultimately underpowered rules set until it is once again updated, which as a modeling hobbyist first, and wargamer second, is not very rewarding at all.
I've recently become a fan of this thing called Dubstep. And you should too.
Datsik & Flux Pavillion - Crunch (Youtube)
Da Moo Kowz is da drinkinest Orks of dem all!