On the power of Assault Cannons vs embedded Meltas - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    On the power of Assault Cannons vs embedded Meltas

    Ok, look this is partly an excuse to get people to check out my battle report, which I kinda wish wasn't sent to the battle reports folder, cuz no one looks there.:

    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...periences.html (Had a 21+ tourney, won (tactician) wanted to share my experiences.)


    However, a fairly consistent theme popped up looking over these battles. First of all, my Assault cannons did quite well with only the 3 of them killing many vehicles, and many, many plague marines. If any of you are interested, btw, an AC will kill a good 40% more AV14 vehicles than a lascannon will. It only gets better at lower AVs, they're ideal for rhinos. All you're getting with a lascannon is range.

    Second, most of my enemies, as is the current meta-game, had tons of embedded melta as a major component of their ant-tank. This didn't work out so well for them. I had a unit of GK out-putting enormous amounts of fire. Previously, when I had tried this, my GK got shot up pretty readily (shroud doesn't really work) and they're expensive. That didn't happen this time, in fact they barely got shot at all. They did get charged or did charge in the end game, but of course they love that.

    Why?

    Well, I realized it was all the embedded melta. See, my enemies had some serious threats bearing down on them in the form of a LR Reedemer (filled with super assaulty GKT) and two assaulty dreadnoughts. Unsurprisingly, my enemies were highly motivated to remove that threat. Their main tool to deal with that involved short range meltas in the hand of otherwise normal squads. THis sorta kinda worked (mostly the dreads and LRs lived well into the 3rd turn or more), but because the melta was mixed in with the dakka, my other squads saw almost no fire at all. Also notably, they never stopped a LR before it had deployed it's payload, keep in mind charge range out of a LR is 20", meltas won't help with that. (unless they are on a bike or speeder)

    The Moral? Scattered embedded meltas are nice, they are a good backup. But you really need some dedicated anti-tank, so that your tac squads and such are not distracted from the dakka tasks they have to accomplish. I personally recommend ACs, as Lascannons are overcosted currently. But missile launchers and to a lesser extent autocannons (for rhinos) are also acceptable. These should be either on a razorback, dread, or predator, but can also be in a devastator squad. Meltas on bikes and speeders still work great, I had a bike squad wiht 3 meltas in it.


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Evil Mountain
    Posts
    3,930
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    415 (x8)

    The main incentive to give meltaguns to your Tacticals is because, well, they need some anti-tank. So you've got the meltagun for flexibility, it's not really a dedicated tank-hunting unit. Most of the time the bolters on tactical squads are wasted anyway. Don't GK have a vehicle upgrade called Blessed Hull or something? I don't have the codex on me.

    The problem with relying on ACs for anti-tank is that they're only available on certain select units - dreadnoughts, razorbacks, LRs, terminators - and they tend to be very expensive. Meltaguns are much more widely available and therefore see a lot more use. There's also the mobility issue; a tactical squad using a missile launcher is about as effective as a squad with a meltagun, but can't move. Moving is very important in 5th.
    The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.

    Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!

    Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."

  4. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    I was talking ground GK. Daemonhunters vehicles suck, it was actually a SM army with some GK in it. THe GK were foot slogging to shoot more.

    I wasn't saying don't take meltas in squads. But people are taking them now as their main plan. That's a bad plan.

    ACs also aren't expensive...... they're significantly cheaper than a lascannon, and all the units that can take them are mobile enough that the 24" range isn't such a huge deal.

    I also disagree very strongly that bolters are useless......for one thing, they wouldn't have been useless against me. But there's tons of armies they're guaranteed to be useful against, like tyranids and all the eldar and orks and Tau. Pretty much the only army bolters are useless against are SM or IG entirely in rhinos or chimera. I have the distinct idea that you play in something of a monoculture.

  5. #4
    Senior Member 4theEmperor!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Spokane Washington
    Posts
    990
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputation
    64 (x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPrometheus View Post
    ACs also aren't expensive...... they're significantly cheaper than a lascannon, and all the units that can take them are mobile enough that the 24" range isn't such a huge deal.
    Eh? Not expensive? I disagree. They are not expensive on terminators, but terminator ARE expensive. They are expensive on Landspeeders and dreadnoughts. Landraiders are expensive too.

    I also disagree very strongly that bolters are useless......for one thing, they wouldn't have been useless against me. But there's tons of armies they're guaranteed to be useful against, like tyranids and all the eldar and orks and Tau. Pretty much the only army bolters are useless against are SM or IG entirely in rhinos or chimera.
    Again, I agree with SP. I find that a torrent of fire is useful, and a tactical squad rapid firing is effective even against Space Marines. Usually they will kill one or two. After you throw in the flamer, or melta and missile launcher, you have some devastation.

    I have the distinct idea that you play in something of a monoculture.
    I think you made that word up!! :-D

    I wasn't saying don't take meltas in squads. But people are taking them now as their main plan. That's a bad plan.
    This is clearly the main idea here and I think it is a good point and important to bring up. A lot of players, I think, do rely on melta guns in the hands of their tac squads. That is fine at some level, but SP's point that they are now ignoring a very important anit-infantry role is important. I rely on forcing my opponent to make target priority choices and whatever he chooses I have units coming at him that will hurt him. Here we can see how opponents try to do the same thing to us.
    Once a Marine, always a Marine.

  6. #5
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Evil Mountain
    Posts
    3,930
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    415 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPrometheus View Post
    I wasn't saying don't take meltas in squads. But people are taking them now as their main plan. That's a bad plan.
    Well...what else are you going to take? Tactical squads can't get assault cannons. If they could, we'd have something of an argument. People give them meltaguns so that they have some flexibility, and if they rely on them too much instead of investing in attack bikes or landspeeders, that's their own bad judgment.

    ACs also aren't expensive...... they're significantly cheaper than a lascannon, and all the units that can take them are mobile enough that the 24" range isn't such a huge deal.
    The only case where assault cannons are cheaper than lascannons is on Dreadnoughts, and then because it's a choice between an assault cannon and a twin-linked lascannon. As I said, with all other units who can take assault cannons, lascannons are either the same price (razorbacks) or unavailable (land speeders, terminators).

    This isn't an either-or. Some units take assault cannons, and other units take meltaguns. I think both are great, but I can't give everyone assault cannons so I give them meltaguns instead.

    I also disagree very strongly that bolters are useless......for one thing, they wouldn't have been useless against me. But there's tons of armies they're guaranteed to be useful against, like tyranids and all the eldar and orks and Tau. Pretty much the only army bolters are useless against are SM or IG entirely in rhinos or chimera.
    I didn't say that they were useless. I said they are usually wasted, which if you look carefully is in fact the opposite of saying that they're useless.

    I think you made that word up!! :-D
    Monoculture refers to the process by which multiple cultures are absorbed or conglomerated into one dominant culture. A good example is Rome. As Rome expanded into Italy, they expanded the Roman culture and language until, by the birth of Christ, all of Italy was culturally Roman, despite many of its inhabitants being Etruscan or Sabinian or Samnian or Ligurian. This process was replicated to a less successful degree outside Italy into Europe, Greece and North Africa - Romans essentially exported Roman-ness, to the point where you could walk into a villa in Britain and it would look identical to a villa in Tuscany.

    Edit: It also refers to agriculture, but I'm pretty sure that's not what SirP meant.
    Last edited by ze_poodle; March 31st, 2010 at 09:31.
    The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.

    Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!

    Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."

  7. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle View Post
    Well...what else are you going to take? Tactical squads can't get assault cannons. If they could, we'd have something of an argument. People give them meltaguns so that they have some flexibility, and if they rely on them too much instead of investing in attack bikes or landspeeders, that's their own bad judgment.
    Well, once again, I wasn't saying don't take them, (though would it kill a SM player to take some plasma every once in a while?) just don't rely on them for your main anti-tank squad.


    I didn't say that they were useless. I said they are usually wasted, which if you look carefully is in fact the opposite of saying that they're useless.
    Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood.


    Monoculture refers to the process by which multiple cultures are absorbed or conglomerated into one dominant culture. A good example is Rome. As Rome expanded into Italy, they expanded the Roman culture and language until, by the birth of Christ, all of Italy was culturally Roman, despite many of its inhabitants being Etruscan or Sabinian or Samnian or Ligurian. This process was replicated to a less successful degree outside Italy into Europe, Greece and North Africa - Romans essentially exported Roman-ness, to the point where you could walk into a villa in Britain and it would look identical to a villa in Tuscany.
    Monoculture just means that it is all one, single homogeneous culture. That has lots of applications from biology to actual culture. Just meant you probably see a lot of all rhino marines.

  8. #7
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Evil Mountain
    Posts
    3,930
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    415 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPrometheus View Post
    Well, once again, I wasn't saying don't take them, (though would it kill a SM player to take some plasma every once in a while?) just don't rely on them for your main anti-tank squad.
    It's just, you know. It has the same effective range because you'll be moving all the time, you can't assault after firing it even though the rest of the squad has bolt pistols for this purpose (and you probably want to assault if you're close enough, even if just to stop them assaulting you) so you're basically tossing up between an extra shot or an extra point of strength, AP, and a fancy +d6 when you're close enough. The plasma is good against heavy infantry and okay against tanks, and the melta is good against tanks and okay against heavy infantry, so the question is: which do you play more often, tanks or heavy infantry?

    Plus, they can instantly kill Nobs, which is another reason why I like them because I hate Nobs and want every single one of them to fall into a giant pit of fire and spikes and die screaming. Hopefully the fire pit is S8.
    The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.

    Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!

    Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."

  9. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    Plus, they can instantly kill Nobs, which is another reason why I like them because I hate Nobs and want every single one of them to fall into a giant pit of fire and spikes and die screaming. Hopefully the fire pit is S8.
    That's a perfectly valid reason.

    However, I do find it useful to leave a unit just squatting on an objective, shooting at range. Vanilla marines are shooty marines, it does happen.

  10. #9
    Torn ACL FTL ==Me=='s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Age
    28
    Posts
    4,404
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    431 (x8)

    I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

    ACs are good for medium range busting light to medium armor. They're better against AV14 than lascannons, but lascannons really aren't good at it themselves.

    You need melta to bust up Land Raiders. Just like you need ACs/LCs to bust up light armor, bolters/flamers to kill hordes, and so on. Loading up on just 1 at the expense of the other is a bad idea, you want to try give your units multiple roles so you don't rely on a handful of units to do a particular job while everybody else is twiddling their thumbs.


    You don't see plasma much in marine armies because it's too expensive and too specialized. What plasma kills, melta does too on top of a bunch of other things. IG and Tau can fit in plasma because they don't have to sacrifice anything for it. They can get plenty of melta and other armor busters, so a little extra specialization from plasma is handy.
    Last edited by ==Me==; April 1st, 2010 at 01:26.
    Check out ==My== blog: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com

  11. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    297
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    16 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by ==Me== View Post
    I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.
    Really didn't say that it was. It's just a lot of people take meltas in squads, and that's their whole plan.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts