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  1. #1
    Now w/ English voice-over LastDinosaur's Avatar
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    Shield of Sanguinius + Vehicles = ?

    Okay, so I was made aware of an interesting rules issue in another thread.
    The thing is I'd never given it further thought and claimed that vehicles within 6" of a Librarian casting the Shield could claim a cover save.
    ze_poodle pointed out to me that this might not actually be the case, however under any circumstances I felt it unappropriate to continue the discussion in the original thread as it wouldn't be fitting, hence this thread.

    From the previous:
    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jy2 View Post
    A vehicle doesn't have to be obscured to have that cover save. The rules says "any unit within 6" receives a 5+ cover..."(BA codex, p. 63) Last time I checked, a vehicle is still a unit, obscured or not.
    Vehicles don't normally get saves of any kind and, as said, don't benefit from cover in the same way that other units do. This is explicitly stated in the rules for obscured targets. A vehicle can only claim a cover save if it is obscured, and it can only be obscured if you cannot draw total LOS or if there is a power or piece of wargear that makes it obscured even when it is out in the open. Simply being granted a cover save isn't enough because vehicles can only ever take cover saves of any kind if they fulfill one of those two criteria.

    To illustrate this, I can put a Rhino and a tactical squad in a ruin. The tactical squad will gain a cover save for being in the ruin, but the Rhino will only be able to gain that cover save if more than 50% of the model is out of LOS. Just being in the ruin isn't good enough. Similarly, Shield of Sanguinius grants a cover save in an area, but for the Rhino, just being in that area isn't good enough. The power has to specifically make vehicles within the radius obscured in order for them to take their cover save because vehicles can only ever take cover saves if they are obscured. Just saying "Well, the vehicle is a unit and gets the 5+ cover save like other units" isn't enough because, as said, vehicles are an exception to normal rules for cover.

    The Shield of Sanguinius power says nothing about making vehicles obscured, which I think is telling because the wording for the KFF explicitly states that it makes vehicles within 6'' obscured in addition to the cover save, treating the two effects as essentially two separate functions of the one piece of wargear. If SoS was intended to function as a KFF, it would have the same wording. You can argue that granting a cover save is the same as granting obscured, but to be perfectly honest you'd be walking on mist.
    Having read the rules now I see your point, reading the rulebook:
    Quote Originally Posted by BRB page 62
    At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targetted needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover. If this is the case the vehicle is said to be obscured. ...
    ...
    If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it, ...
    Unfortunately this doesn't help us much at all, and we can argue back and forth about it, but I'll post my points:

    There is only a oneway-implication like this "Obscured => Coversave"
    Nowhere is it stated that vehicles cannot obtain a cover save by other means, only they cannot claim to be in cover unless obscured.
    Blood Angels infantry are not in cover, but recieves a cover save from the Shield nevertheless, so why couldn't the vehicles?

    Now the KFF normally gives 5+ cover save, but obscured vehicles receives a 4+ cover save, so the mention of vehicles in the KFF is not futile.


    Okay this was my take on it. Discussion open!


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  3. #2
    LO Zealot watchwood's Avatar
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    There's 2 key points to this, in my opinion:

    1) "any unit". Vehicles are still a unit.

    2) Coxes overrides the rulebook in any cases of conflict.

    My take on this is pretty cut and dried, that the SoS power works just fine on vehicles. (Frankly, I find the fact that someone's arguing based on the wording the the vehicle cover rukes in the BRB to be pretty cheap)

  4. #3
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    I'm welcome to discuss this here. I was actually kind of concerned that I'd derail that other thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by LastDinosaur
    Nowhere is it stated that vehicles cannot obtain a cover save by other means, only they cannot claim to be in cover unless obscured.
    This essentially says it. To clarify my understanding of the rule, the only means by which a vehicle can obtain a cover save is by being obscured. The vehicle can only become obscured in one of two ways: by having more than 50% of the vehicle's body out of LOS (the "normal" way) or by way of a specific power or piece of wargear which makes the vehicle obscured. The Kustom Force Field is an example of such a piece of wargear; it explicitly states that vehicles within 6'' are treated as obscured.

    By contrast, Shield of Sanguinius does only one thing, which is grant a 5+ cover save to units within a 6'' radius. This is not the same thing as making the unit obscured, just as being in an area that would normally grant an infantry unit a cover save does not automatically obscure a vehicle in the same position.

    Blood Angels infantry are not in cover, but recieves a cover save from the Shield nevertheless, so why couldn't the vehicles?
    The reason I think this is not sufficient is because simply being in cover is not enough to grant a vehicle a cover save. I tried to show this with the example you quoted. For infantry, gaining a cover save is as simple as standing in an area which grants a cover save. Vehicles explicitly do not behave this way. They must follow the criteria for obscurement that are described in the book. SoS does not fulfill either of those criteria.

    Now, it is totally arguable that by granting units a 5+ cover save, SoS also grants vehicles a 5+ "obscurement" cover save. But to be perfectly honest, "5+ cover save = obscured" is a pretty big logical leap that I'm hesitant to take. And I think the fact that the KFF explicitly grants obscurement where SoS doesn't is somewhat telling.

    Quote Originally Posted by wormwood
    1) "any unit". Vehicles are still a unit.
    They are a unit, yes, but they are a unit which follow their own cover rules. They are an exception to the normal rules for cover and cover saves. Just saying "Well, they're units too" doesn't cut it.

    2) Coxes overrides the rulebook in any cases of conflict.
    This is part of the point. The codex does not conflict with the rulebook. Shield of Sanguinius does not make vehicles obscured, it grants units a cover save which vehicles can't benefit from because they only ever get cover saves if they are obscured - not the other way around. This is not in conflict with the rulebook in any way.
    Last edited by ze_poodle; April 18th, 2010 at 19:20.
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    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    douple post mckinley
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    Well, I'll hold on saying one way or another about SoS per se, but I just wanted to mention one thing at least. A vehicle being "obscured" doesn't mean it gets a 4+ save. It means it gets cover. The rest of the vehicle entry goes on to state that the vehicle claims cover just as infantry do, so if a Rhino is in tall grass that covers 50% or more of the hull, it gets a 5+, razor wire gives it a 6+ and a fortification could give it a 3+ cover save. The only time obscurement = 4+ is when the power/gear doesn't state anything specific. If it states in the description it's obscured with a 5+, that's what it gets.
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    LO Zealot BossGorestompa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle View Post
    Logic
    To be specific, the rules describe how vehicles interact with cover. If we've really gotta dig this far into the rules.. cover and cover saves are different keywords in the rulebook. Cover grants a cover save, and the rules state that vehicles do not gain the benefits of cover in the same way as infantry. They do not state anything about how vehicles gain cover saves from any other sources besides cover.

    The psychic power alters how a unit can gain a cover save -- they benefit from a 5+ save, even if they are not in cover. It circumvents the need for cover, and thus the need for obscurement. And as jy said, vehicles are still units, and all units within 6" of the Libbie receive a cover save.
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    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGorestompa View Post
    To be specific, the rules describe how vehicles interact with cover. If we've really gotta dig this far into the rules.. cover and cover saves are different keywords in the rulebook. Cover grants a cover save, and the rules state that vehicles do not gain the benefits of cover in the same way as infantry. They do not state anything about how vehicles gain cover saves from any other sources besides cover.
    It's a sound point, but I'm still unconvinced. The Vehicles and Cover rules clearly address the possibility of powers or wargear such as KFF and smoke launchers that grant obscured saves to vehicles without the presence of cover, i.e. when out in the open. That, to me, seems present to address the possibility of vehicles gaining cover saves where they normally wouldn't.

    The psychic power alters how a unit can gain a cover save -- they benefit from a 5+ save, even if they are not in cover. It circumvents the need for cover, and thus the need for obscurement.
    See, this is where the gap is. A 5+ cover save is not the same as obscurement, and nothing in the power states that it ignores or circumvents the normal need for obscurement, merely the normal need for cover. Cover does not automatically mean obscurement. A vehicle can be in an area that would grant a cover save to any other unit and yet not be obscured and have no save.
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  9. #8
    LO Zealot BossGorestompa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle View Post
    To clarify my understanding of the rule, the only means by which a vehicle can obtain a cover save is by being obscured. The vehicle can only become obscured in one of two ways...

    ...By contrast, Shield of Sanguinius does only one thing, which is grant a 5+ cover save to units within a 6'' radius. This is not the same thing as making the unit obscured, just as being in an area that would normally grant an infantry unit a cover save does not automatically obscure a vehicle in the same position.
    I think you've got this backwards. The rules for obscurement specifically address how a vehicle interacts with cover (a keyword indicating terrain). In the absence of cover, these rules do not apply. Nothing in the rulebook, or Codex, would suggest that there are any other reasons why a vehicle should not receive the cover save (cover being but one means of receiving a cover save); it meets all other prerequisites (a: it is a unit, and b: (assuming) it is within 6" of the psychic power). So, withholding obscurement, there is no other reason, to my knowledge, that a vehicle should not benefit from SoS. Why then, in the absence of any wording such as "vehicles cannot otherwise gain a cover save by other means," etc., do you believe that obscurement is the absolute come all, be all, for vehicles and cover saves?

    Simply put, the entire left column of page 62 describes nothing of cover saves, but for cover saves granted by cover. Psychic power != cover, and so special rules modifying how vehicles interact with it do not apply to the psychic power.

    EDIT: You too have a sound point. It really boils down to what is RAI, which I agree is a bit unclear. But my conclusion is the polar opposite of yours, whereby until (and if) it is FAQ'd, IMO there is nothing in the rules stopping vehicles from claiming a cover save.
    Last edited by BossGorestompa; April 18th, 2010 at 21:29.
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  10. #9
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BossGorestompa View Post
    Simply put, the entire left column of page 62 describes nothing of cover saves, but for cover saves granted by cover. Psychic power != cover, and so special rules modifying how vehicles interact with it do not apply to the psychic power..
    Quote Originally Posted by p62
    If a special rule or wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even when out in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the codex.
    This is what I'm referring to. That is a statement on how to gain a cover save without cover. You do it with "a special rule or wargear." I mean, it describes smoke launchers on the opposite side of the page. It's clearly addressing how you can determine a vehicle's cover saves without cover being present. This whole "that section only deals with interaction with cover" isn't an accurate representation of the rules.

    Here's an analogy. A while ago, we had a question in the Rules Help forum about whether the Leman Russ' Lumbering Behemoth rule allowed it to fire when stunned or shaken, the same way a Land Raider's Power of the Machine Spirit rule does. THe two rules both allow vehicles to fire more weapons than they would usually be allowed to, but only PotMS explicitly stated that it allowed you to fire when stunned or shaken. The conclusion everyone arrived at was that the Lumbering Behemoth rule did not allow the Leman Russ to ignore shaken results, because it was not explicitly stated in the rule.

    In my opinion, the relation between Shield of Sanguinius and the Kustom Force Field is the exact same scenario. Vehicles do not follow the normal rules for gaining cover saves. They only ever get a cover save when they are obscured, or have an item that makes them obscured. All items that exist to give vehicles cover saves - smoke launchers, KFF - do it by making them obscured. Why is SoS different? Why does it bypass the required obscurement? Why should we extrapolate from it an implied function that similaritems and the rulebook itself saw necessary to explicitly state? It is a massive leap of logic that flies in the face of the rulebook and which I am frankly not comfortable with making until a clear FAQ is out on the subject.
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  11. #10
    Member camarodragon's Avatar
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    I believe ze poodle is right. Moving flat out in a skimmer counts as obscured. Tau disruption pods also count the vehical as obscured. Smoke launchers count as obscured.

    If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a
    vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the
    open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise
    in the Codex.


    I believe SoS would have to say "that a vehicle would also count as obscured" to get use of the cover save. It does not. The same goes for SM force dome.
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