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Thread: Eldar Halp >:C

  1. #1
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    Eldar Halp >:C

    The group of people that play at my school (Eastern Michigan University) consists of like 4 Tau, 3 IG (Including myself), 2 Nids, and 1 Eldar. We're all pretty much newbs but the Eldar guy has been playing for like 4 years.

    Now we usually play 750 pts and my build consists of:

    1 HQ:
    Company Command Squad (1 Senior officer/4 Veterans) 50 pts

    Company Commander:
    Power Fist 10 pts
    Plasma Pistol 15 pts

    Veterans:
    1 Voxcaster 05 pts
    1 Plasma Gun 15 pts
    Med Pack 30 pts
    1 Regimental Standard 15 pts

    Command Squad:
    Carapice Armour 20 pts
    Camo Cloaks 20 pts
    Krak Grens 05 pts
    total = 185pts

    2 Troops:
    Veteran Squad (1 Sgt/9 Veterans) 70 pts
    Sgt:
    Bolt Pistol 02 pts
    Power Weapon 10 pts
    Veterans:
    Vox caster 05 pts
    Plasma Gun 15 pts
    Melta Gun 10 pts
    Grenade Launcher 05 pts
    Squad:
    Foward Senteries 30 pts
    Total = 147x2= 294

    1 Heavy:
    Leman Russ Battle Tank 150 pts
    Lascannon 015 pts
    Plasma Cannon Sponsons 040 pts
    Estra Armour 015 pts
    Knight Commander Pask Upgrade 50 pts
    Total = 270 pts

    So I am essentially running 749 pts. for 750 pt games.

    This build has relative success for me but the eldar player just onehands me and everyone else on the board.

    Im not exactly to sure of his build but his general tactics seem to heavily rely on the Farseers ability to "Doom, Fortune and Guide every living thing on the God forsaken map". Even if I do try to target him he usually is attatched to a Wraithguard squad or something that can soak up the damage and dish it back with double the pay load. And don't even remind me of that infernal blade storm

    Anyone have some tips?

    Last edited by (V):o:{^w^}:o:(V); April 19th, 2010 at 18:26.

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  3. #2
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    Uhh, I like to start off my responses with the name of the person I am addressing. I don't know what your name is. I'm assuming your symbol-mashery represents something interesting, but for now you are Steve. It could probably be palindromic to match your keyboard crunching, but I digress.

    Welcome aboard Steve:

    1) Your list should (and likely will) be relocated to the army list section. No big deal, I didn't know it was there when I first joined either. Folks on this forum give awesome advice about fine-tuning army lists. However, as you are relatively new to 40K, your list looks like it could use some general advice instead of fine-tuning. Regardless of location, you can't post the exact points on individual upgrades. Saying a squad with these five upgrades is 110 points is fine, but listing points for each sub-component is a no-no.

    2) You are spending an INSANE amount of points for 25 guardsmen and a tank. For 750 points you could easily field double your current numbers with a more streamlined list. Just because you can give stuff upgrades doesn't necessarily mean you want to. I don't know what models you currently own, but for starters just strip things down to basic dudes and fancy guns. It's mind boggling to see 185 points on five dudes without a transport. They are still guardsmen, not terminators. That squad could be 65 points and still do pretty much the same thing. Try your list without: Pask, Extra Armor, Plasma Sponsons, Lascannon, Forward Sentries, Vox Casters, Power Weapons, Bolt Pistols, Krak Grenades, Camo Cloaks, Carapace Armor, Regimental Standard, Medi-Pack, Plasma Pistol, Power Fist. That saves about 334 points. Wow!

    3) In general units function to accomplish a purpose. Like our transition from hunter-gatherers to agrarian society, we learned that when some folks make shoes and some folks make food and we all share, life is more efficient. The same happens in 40K, and especially in the Imperial Guard. When one squad focuses on shooting lots of little things and another focuses on shooting big things, your army becomes more efficient. Therefore, mixing a grenade launcher, a melta gun and a plasma gun in the same squad is inherently inefficient. Whatever target you choose, you are spending points on guns not meant to shoot it. If you want grenade launchers, put three in the same squad so they all shoot the same distance, same strength, and same AP with the same movement. Expand this concept to the entire army, and think about what purpose you want each unit to serve. Do you want to kill light infantry, heavy infantry, light vehicles, heavy vehicles? Once you pick a purpose for your units, equip them accordingly. Once your squads are equipped to serve a purpose, you can begin tweaking the composition of the entire list to better function cohesively. Tying it back into our analogy, do you need more cobblers (shoe kind) or more cobblers (food kind)?

    4) What type of stuff is your eldar buddy fielding? I'm guessing it has some skimmers that are tough to shoot, and he has a psyker that makes his dire avengers rip your 25 dudes to shreds. I have great news for you. No army can field more autocannons than the Imperial Guard. We even have a tank (Hydra) that is built to shoot down skimmers. Oh, even better news: almost every Eldar soldier has crappy armor that an autocannon can puncture. If he really is fielding Wraithguard at 750 points, take that leman russ and shoot them with the big pie plate. One lucky shot and you are dropping over 175 points of wraithguard. Consolidate those plasma guns into one squad of veterans, and you can drop all those wraithguard in one rapid-fire. Shoot the farseer with three of those grenade launchers, and because they are strength six, if he fails one save he's toast.

    I hope that helps, Steve, and let us know how it goes. Maybe retry the list and put it in the army list section?

    Good luck, and welcome again.

  4. #3
    Member Lavallin's Avatar
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    Wow. I'm sorry, there's not really any polite way to say this, but that's a list that just doesn't know what it wants to do, and isn't going to do anything well as a result of it. Your command squad and Vet Squads are way overpriced, and your Russ is a bloated monster. You could nearly have two for that price. Your Russ appears to be your principal anti-armour, but even that is better - IMHO - using its template against large troops choices.

    First things first:

    -You appear to have some prices wrong. For starters, posting exact costs is against board rules, but these aren't even accurate in some cases. You might want to re-check your codex on, for instance, power fists.
    -The Imperial Guard's great strength is firepower. You want streamlined squads. Maximise guns; minimise waste. You also want to concentrate fire; for that reason, concentrate weapons of the same type in squads so that you won't waste weak shots against armour or single shots against hordes.
    -Especially against a fast, flexible enemy such as Eldar (can be), redundancy is your friend. Two or more vehicles - even AV12, not AV14 - are far more survivable than one tank.
    -5th Edition is Melta Edition. The best way to kill vehicles is up close and personal with +2d6 weapons. Vet squads with 3x melta in Chimeras are a favourite, but Guardsman Marbo with Demo Charge + Melta Bombs is also a strong choice.
    -5th Ed is also Mech Edition, so expect to face plenty of transports. Your army has a decent number of plasma guns, which are both fair against AV12 and good against MEQs/TEQs (although you said that there are no SM players). However, I find autocannons to be better for the first task, and nearly as good for the second in an environment where cover abounds. Depends on the tables you're playing on, of course.
    -You're short on mobile units to take objectives, and only have two scoring choices to hold objectives. It's not even like Forward Sentries lets you infiltrate (as the name might suggest) - that would make it worth the points.

    Mostly using the models you already have (with copious "counts-as"), I would recommend:

    1. Run the Russ as a bare-bones Russ Eradicator (i.e. hull HB only). AP4 and denying cover should be a great help against most of your opponents.
    2. Focus your veteran squads. I'd strongly recommend 3x meltas. A chimera too if you can get it.
    3. This saves you enough points for two squads to babysit objectives.
    4.Your command squad can be the seat of huge special weapons firepower as well. 4x flamer is an outstanding counter-assault unit, or 4x GL is a good generalist unit.
    5. Marbo is great if you've got a model.
    6. Hydras are great if you can find a model (forgeworld is expensive, or kitbash).

    Something like:

    CCS: Fist, 4x Flamer - 85 pts
    Marbo - 65pts
    Vets: 3x Melta, Chimera - 155pts
    2x Vets: 3x Grenade Launcher - 190pts
    Russ Eradicator - 160 pts
    Hydra - 75 pts

    This comes to 730pts by my reckoning, and gives you 20pts to play with on Autocannons for the 2x Vet squads, or for fluffy upgrades, such as a Plasma Pistol on your commander, if you want.

    Sorry for eviscerating so much of your list, and hope some of this was helpful. As always, feel free to disagree!

    Edit: darn, Seppuku got there first on almost everything I said! Well played, that man.
    Last edited by Lavallin; April 19th, 2010 at 20:03.

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    Lavallin:

    It either confirms some conventional wisdom, or maybe both of us are equally off-target? I'm hoping for the first. I actually thought someone would ninja me because I typed for so long. I'm guessing we were drafting simultaneously. I think you are far more specific, which is probably better. Nicely done.

    Steve:

    I tried to keep things general because you said you were new to 40K. After reading what Lavallin had to say, I hope I wasn't too pedantic. I just wanted to go at it from a bare-bones approach to 40K as opposed to individualized list tweakery.

    My first army was Tau, and I loved giving them all the fancy doo-dads known to man. I kept getting crushed by all the local players. I got wiped to a man by eldar, black templar, necrons, dark angels, tyranids, khorne, anybody. I think I lost a game to a four year-old using a chili-cheese dog. I realized the stats on a chili-cheese dog aren't that great, and decided to switch tactics. I took all the fancy upgrades out of my list, and I ran a basic infantry army with only suits and fire warriors. I dropped Kroot, I dropped vehicles, I dropped upgrades, I dropped anything that wasn't a guy or a gun.

    My success changed instantly. I ended up getting rid of the army after about 100 consecutive victories and a dozen tournament sweeps. That army taught me the efficiency of finding a job for a squad, keeping things basic, and how to prioritize targets. I had to lose my first 20 games to learn what a few sentences from this forum could have showed me all those years ago. I thought the general advice would help, so hopefully it does and will. Enjoy!

  6. #5
    LO Zealot cKerensky's Avatar
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    A good eldar player is absolutely a pain to beat.

    For 750 (well, 748), I'd suggest the following. You'll notice that I'm running a platoon as well as a pair of Veteran squads. The upside to this, is that you can sneak some more autocannons and point capturing units onto the board, the downside is you won't get the sexy demolition charge, but, I've still managed to fit a Russ in.

    Company Command Squad
    x4 Grenade Launchers

    These guys stay behind the platoon, and when needed can drop templates or S6 shots on whatever needs shooting. Great for hitting pesky wraithlords, or dropping templates on Nid players. The G.Launchers direct hit has the upside of both being able to stun every Eldar Vehicle (though on a 6), instant kill their characters, and drop templates on them that'll wound on a 4+

    Platoon Squad Alpha

    Platoon Command Squad
    Autocannon
    2x Grenade Launcher

    Direct the fire of these guys where you need it most. Grenade Launchers and Autocannons have some symmetry, nothing bad with splitting weapons up on this particular squad

    Platoon Squads Alpha, Beta, and Delta
    Autocannon
    Grenade Launcher

    This gives you some flexibility: On killpoint missions, combine the squad. On point capture missions, split it up: remember, your Platoon Command squad AND each of the individual platoon squads can capture points. At 750 points, combined with the Veteran squads I'm going to be listing below, give you a whopping 6 possible units to hold a point with. In reality, the platoon shouldn't be moving too much. The auto-cannons will hurt Eldar Skimmers (especially with orders). Grenade Launchers for the same reasons state above.

    Veteran Squads 1 and 2
    3x Melta Gun
    Chimera
    --Hull mounted Heavy Flamer

    Your bread and butter unit. Whatever your autocannons can't kill, these guys get done. If you feel you'd rather give them the demolitions doctrine, you can drop the Grenade Launchers from other units and perhaps a couple of Meltas to get the points to do so. Don't be afraid about sacrificing the Chimera. Drive your boys up. If you take the Det Pack, it becomes even more crucial to get these guys into position ASAP.

    Leman Russ Battle Tank
    --Hull Mounted Heavy Flamer

    This one should be obvious. LRBT. Sit. Shoot. Kablooie. No need to get fancy here.
    Last edited by cKerensky; April 20th, 2010 at 01:34.

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    Well thanks for the info and ill take this list to the proper channels.

  8. #7
    My backpack has JETS! Ravendove's Avatar
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    Okay. I'm sorry to say but your it's no wonder your list just doesn't work. Too many upgrades, un-focused units and general bloat. Suggestions in red.

    PS. Please don't post individual upgrade costs. It's against forum rules and invalidates GW copyright.

    Quote Originally Posted by (V):o:{^w^}:o:(V) View Post
    1 HQ:
    Company Command Squad (1 Senior officer/4 Veterans)
    Power Fist, Plasma Pistol
    Voxcaster, Plasma Gun, Med Pack, Regimental Standard
    Carapice Armour, Camo Cloaks, Krak Grens
    Lose the following:
    - Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Standard, Vox, Carapace, Krak

    Now decide what kind of role these should fill. If you're going to be sitting back, shooting and supporting your gunline, get a Heavy Weapon team (eg, Lascannon or Autocannon) to make use of that BS4. Med Pack is relatively pointless because it's such a small squad - it's only really useful if you have 3 x Plasmaguns. If this unit ever gets into combat, it's dead anyway so the power fist is equally pointless.


    2 Troops:
    Veteran Squad (1 Sgt/9 Veterans)
    Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
    Vox caster, Plasma Gun, Melta Gun, Grenade Launcher
    Foward Senteries
    Lose:
    - Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Vox, Sentries

    Decide on one type of special weapon and get 3 of them. Why have one of each? If you're shooting at light infantry, the Meltagun is wasted. If you're shooting at heavy armour, the plasma and grenade is wasted. For the point of this unit, you could have TWO Veteran squads instead. Pick a role for the unit and equip them to specialise in it. The 'take all comers' style of play is for Space Marine Tactical Squad. You are not a Space Marine Tactical Squad.


    1 Heavy:
    Leman Russ Battle Tank
    Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons, Estra Armour, Knight Commander Pask Upgrade
    Drop everything. A standard LRBT is a great buy for 150 points. As soon as you start adding all these upgrades it becomes less and less worth the points. For the 270 points this unit costs, you could almost just have TWO Leman Russes instead.
    Remember the core tenets of the Imperial Guard:

    1. Lots of bodies. If in doubt, use more men.
    2. Lots of weapons. If in doubt, use more guns.

    Take a moment to consider what your Eldar opponent is fielding. What gives you the most problems? Farseer, Wraithguard and Dire Avengers. Now let's consider how we can firstly defend against these threats and secondly what we should take to wipe them out.

    Farseer:
    Doom is a powerful ability, but is absolutely useless against vehicles. He won't be able to Doom units embarked inside a Chimera, for example.
    You also have access to unlimited-range Psychic Hoods, which effectively give you a 50% chance of negating any psychic power cast. These come in the form of allied Inquisitors from the Daemonhunters Codex.

    Wraithguard:
    Expensive, slow and short-ranged. How are these killing you with an effective 18" threat range? Leman Russes (or indeed, any AP3 artillery) should make short work of them. You could use Chimeras to move your troops around and give you protection, not to mention being able to move 12" away from the enemy every turn. He'll be chasing you around while you whittle him down with firepower.

    Dire Avengers:
    Against low toughness troops like these, any decent amount of concentrated firepower should wipe them out completely. Consider the order "First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!". Even better, Heavy Flamers are an Eldar player's worst nightmare. Chimeras will completely negate the effectiveness of a Bladestorm, in addition to being able to mount a Heavy Flamer on the hull should they get close.

    I would consider taking something like this:

    Company Command Squad
    4 Plasmaguns
    Chimera (Multilaser/Hull Heavy Flamer)
    165

    Veteran Squad
    3 Meltaguns
    Chimera (Multilaser/Hull Heavy Flamer)
    155

    Platoon Command Squad
    4 Flamers
    Chimera (Multilaser/Hull Heavy Flamer)
    105

    Infantry Squad 1
    Grenade Launcher, Autocannon
    65

    Infantry Squad 2
    Grenade Launcher, Autocannon
    65

    Leman Russ Demolisher
    Hull Heavy Flamer
    165

    That comes out at 720/750. Sprinkle a few upgrades in and you're set. You've got Multilasers, Autocannons and Grenade Launchers to take pot shots at Falcons and Wave Serpents, which can double up to fire on medium infantry. Heavy Flamers to decimate enemy medium infantry (Dire Avengers) close up. Demolisher Cannon to take out things like Wraithguard, War Walkers and such. Plasmaguns for any heavy infantry like Wraithguard. Meltaguns for Wraithlords or vehicles that get too close. Flamers for any light infantry such as Guardians.

    You also have 4 Scoring units and 4 Vehicles. Two infantry squads to camp any objectives in your deployment zone.

  9. #8
    Member MylesTheTroll's Avatar
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    Eldar player here.

    Here's a tip: Remember, (only) Wave Serpents have Energy Fields equipped which negate +1 dice rolls that you'd get from shooting Melta and Ordnance weapons at their front or side armor. As well as all STR9 and STR10 shots count as STR8 on the Serpent's Front and Side Armor (AV12). Note that the Energy Fields do not work on the Rear Armor (AV10), so try outflanking, if able, or get up close and personal.

  10. #9
    LO Zealot cKerensky's Avatar
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    Great minds think alike, Raven. Your list is almost identical to mine!

  11. #10
    Acting XO of Tanith 1st MadLarkin's Avatar
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    don't wraithguard have a 2+ save? a unit of these at 750 can be tough to deal with, but a demolisher suddenly make them a huge waste of points for them. Have meltas and plasmas as back up in case your demolisher gets destroyed.
    Most Notable Achievements:
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