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~Hey there friends, I was wondering as to how everyone runs their Death Company. Myself, I prefer to have a small unit, usually as follows: Death Company x9 (w/ Bolters), Powerfists x2, Rhino. Usually with a Chaplain or Reclusiarch in it. Quite expensive, I know.
Now, question is, are Bolters better, or does the Bolt Pistol/chainsword excel? I'm building them in a day or so, so I still have time to decide, but I'm still up in the air.
Pros: Relentless love. Able to move and shoot 24" and Rapid Fire 12" when in range.
Cons: I can't remember is relentless lets you charge after firing rapid fire, but I don't believe it does. Also, no +1 attack, which (on the charge) means one less Str 5 Int 5 hit per model, which is quite good.
Pros: +1 attack. Meaning they have base 3 attacks, and 4 on the charge. Delicious.
Cons: Only one shot in 12".
Please, any other people in here crunch the numbers and find which is the better set up?
Your friendly neighborhood Spiderman.
Pretty sure that relentless does let you charge after firing with rapid fire weapons, which means that it's a question of if you need more shots of a somewhat lower strength, or less shots of a somewhat higher strength. That's really just a function of who you intend to be fighting.
Your other option is to mix the two options in your squads, and load the wounds onto your models based on what you need less of in whatever situation you're in. Fighting guard? pull the CC guys. Fighting MEQs? Pull the bolter guys.
On the one hand, getting an extra attack that generally hits on 3+ and wounds on 3+ (4/9 chance of wounding on any given attack) is really good. On the other when you shoot bolters you're getting AP5 wounds, which against some armies is better than the no-ap attacks.
(Mathhammer alert. Murphy's law caveats apply and such)
For example, let's say you charge 20 IG guys with 10 DC (no power weapons or anything). If you have bolt pistols + ccws, you put out 40 attacks, 26.6 hits, and 17.77 wounds. IG rolls their 5+ flak saves, and 6 make their saves. Thus, around 11.7 guys drop.
Now run the bolters. 20 shots, 13.3333 hits, and 8.8888 wounds. No saves from those. Then 30 attacks in cc, resulting in 20 hits, and 13.33333 wounds, resulting in 8.8888 failed saves. Total of around 17.6 wounds, so something like 6 extra.
Of course, that's only against IG. That being said, against 4+ armor, or where cover is involved, you're better off with volume. Of course, cover is pretty prevalent, and there are a fair number of armies with 4+ saves and better.
Ultimately, I'd take the bolt pistols and ccws. Add on the fact that if you take power swords you get the extra attacks, it's a better plan (though with powerfists and thunder hammers and single lightning claws you might as well take a bolter).
Ugh, complicated stats.
The decision is determined by your opponent's armour save. If it's 5+ or worse, you will benefit from the extra bolt shot as it ignores his armour. If it's better than 5+, you benefit more from the extra S5 melee attack.
The boltgun shot is further complicated by the issue of cover. Even the 5+ save armies like Guard will be able to get a cover save if they're halfway decent, in which case you're much better off with the bolt pistol. For all-comers, the bolt pistol and CCW is the most versatile choice.
Plus, you have to consider Chaplains and Liturgies of Blood, which only applies to melee attacks. In DogofWar1's mathammer scenario above, a Chaplain would increase the DC's hits against IG from 26.7 to 35.5, and their resulting wounds (2+ with re-rolls) would average 34.5, of which 23 would get through the Guardsmen's armour save, annihilating the squad.
Dog, you also miscalculated the wounds there. The DC are S5 when charging, and would wound the T3 Guardsmen on a 2+, not a 3+. You also forgot to account for bolt pistol shots in the first (BP+CCW) scenario.
I think my own math is correct, but someone might want to check it because math is not really my thing. My general conclusion is that if you have a Chaplain, you should take the BP+CCW, and if you don't have a Chaplain, you should still take them because it's rare that you'll fire on a 5+ save unit that doesn't have cover of some kind.
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Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
Sadly, it isn't always as simple as math hammer and your opponent (which isn't very simple to start with) but also your method of delivery. Whether you choose to go mechanized or pod the in, maybe even jump pack them! I won't go into the other factors already mentioned but think about your opponents saves, opponents model count (relavent for how much cover he can reliably use), opponents toughness, and most importantly if their initiative is higher than yours, mainly on the charge as death company do not make for prolonged combats.
Now consider how your going to get these guys into the mix. With any type of mechanized delivery you can count on a turn 2 charge, land raider/ stormraven move 12 then (next turn) move 12 disembark 2 charge 6 for a 32 inch charge radius while cheaper options the rhinos and razorback allow you a 32 inch charge, move 18 (next turn) disembark 2 move 6 charge 6. And drop pods which are a little less predictable. Finally we have the jump marines which can account for charging anything within 31-36 inches, move 12 run 1-6 (next turn) move 12 charge 6.
The first of these two options is a reliable turn 2 charge should your opponent deploy back a little or shuffle around a bit to avoid you, remember though an opponent dedicated to avoiding this turn 2 charge will be able to, but with your higher armour you should be able to reach your opponent without too much foot slogging and so the only real shooting you should be doing is 1 round of a full squad firing before they get the charge. In this instance I would reccomend the bolt pistol close combat weapon setup.
The next option is rhinos and razorbacks. this is a little less clear as they are not as durable as your land raiders and stormraven, and when packed full of death company will attract quite a bit of fire power.Should it make it to your opponent you would presumably be better served with the extra attacks, but should it not the option is not so clear. You can't benefit from the extra shot at 12-24 inches because of rage, but once you close the distance you look at times when you may be out of charge ranges but able to rapid fire, here you would definately benefit from the bolters as you get that extra shot and in your opponents turn you will undoubtably take casulties and so lose some of the bonuses of the extra attacks.
If delivered by drop pod the option seems clear. Bolters are the way to go. Drop pods will bring you into rapid fire range quite easily so you will make use of the extra shot, but your opponent will undoubtably thin down your squad meaning in the following turn where you can assault, providing your opponent didn't move away which most would, you benefit from less marines taking the close combat weapon bonus and of course you can still have the option to rapid fire at an opponent that moved out of your charge range.
Jump packing death company may in fact depend more on the deployment type than anything else. In a pitched battle game they would be better off with close combat weapons and bolt pistols, as they will not be in rapid fire range in turn 1 (unless your opponent gets the 1st turn and moves up) but charge range in turn 2, and running could be very useful. The other two deployment types may surprisingly make better use of bolters. You very well may start inside of 24 inches from your opponent and could end up with a presumable turn 1 rapid fire (keep in mind that in spearhead games your opponent can VERY easily avoid you) and unless your opponent tries to avoid you charge range in turn 2.
You have many things to consider about your regular opponents and the answer isn't always black and white. Consider how you plan to bring your death company to battle (in your case rhinos), your regular opponents saves, his model count (relavent for how much cover he can reliably use), his toughness, and most importantly if their initiative is higher than yours, mainly on the charge as death company do not make for prolonged combats. This can get very daunting over a large gaming group nd always remember when facing assaulty armies that your rapid fire range is their charge range.
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Mr Biscuits has done a very good analisys of the two weapon options.
There is however one more thing I'd like to point out:
Versatility lets you win games. The power to choose the correct answer to the appropriate threat is our greatest advantage.
Death Company can easily be lured into a trap. They can be forced to assault units they don't want to and can be forced to move away from your enemy's main force by simple baits.
Bolters are your best answer to their greatest disadvantage:
Your adversary is forcing you into an assault with a 10 men eldar guard squad which will lead you away from his most important units?
-shoot any other squad so you won't be allowed to charge the guardians:
But I could use pistols for that too.. True, but 'cause you're just foregoing assault to shoot another squad, your shooting better count something.
Moreover bolters have 24 range so you should always find a target to shoot at to avoid assaulting your adversary's bait
-shoot the guardians hoping to wipe them completely out so you won't be forced to assault them:
10 pistols will hardly manage this, 20 bolter shots could achieve it (10 bolters = 8.8 wounds. Toss in some minimal fire support and you're done..)
Some nice Genestealer ladys are wayting for you to charge them:
I'd really prefere to thin them out as much as possible before charging them:
Bolters are thus preferable.
Imperial Guard commander has his 3 Leman Russes ready to place their pizza pyes on your poor "MORITURI" as soon as you'll have wiped out his platoon:
Your goal is trying to remain stucked in for exactly one turn thus avoiding his retailation fire:
DC with bolters will have less attacks and are therefore preferable in this role.. (you are not forced to shoot before charging..)
All in all the best advice I can give you is:
Very good points Pippolele, I actually didn't even realise that death company can fire bolters the full 24 inches as they have to move (unless in a transport or if there isn't any enemys in sight) but after checking out the rules foer relentless they count as stationary so that could be a very good way to avoid unwanted assaults. *rep*
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Last edited by DogofWar1; April 27th, 2010 at 07:56.
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