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was wondering whether frag or krak grenades are more effective in killing marines, frag grenades have a template but lower strength and krak grenades are hit or miss, what would people say firing them using standard guadsmen at tactical marines?
This is with a grenade launcher, or missile launcher right?
If ML - Krak, unless they're packed in cover. a hit is a 2+ to kill with no save.
If GrLn - a krak gives you a 2+ to wound, and they get a 3+ save, wheras a frag gives you 4+, but you can get more than 1x hit (and scatter may be better than a straight hit / miss)
Adeptus Mechanicus Marines: http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1655065
This is some serious math-hammer, which I don't have time to work out now, but let's consider first the simpler facts.
A BS3 Guardsman firing a S8 AP3 Krak Missile at a Space Marine will on average cause 0.41 wounds per turn.
4+ Hit, 2+ Wound, No save. In other words, one shot has a 50% chance to hit, 83.33% to wound = 41% chance to kill per shot fired.
Now a Frag missile uses the 3" blast and we can assume the Space Marine player has deployed his models with a 2" gap between each model in the squad, the maximum distance, to reduce effects of blast weapons. We can also assume the Guardsman fires into the middle of the squad to maximise his chances of hitting if scatter takes place. Therefore, the minimum models we can hit is 1 (hit) and the maximum is 4 (scatter)
Since we must center the template over a model, a 'Hit' on the Scatter dice will result in only 1 model hit.
The chance of rolling a 'Hit' is 1/3 or 33.33%. Furthermore, if a scatter is rolled, we reduce the result by 3 (Guardsman BS).
The chance of rolling a Scatter is 2/3 or 66.66%. Probability of rolling 3 or less on the 2d6 scatter (to get a direct hit) is 6%.
Thus, the chance of a direct hit after all rolls, is 39%. Which causes 1 hit.
S4 wounds T4 on 4+ (50% chance) and the Marine gets a 3+ save (66.66% chance).
So, statistically, the chance of a direct hit, wound and kill of is 0.064 wounds (6% chance) per turn.
Now, in the above example, where Space Marines are standing 2" apart and not in a horizontal line. That is, assuming they are standing in a big blob, the maximum number of models you can hit is 4. Even then, that only equals 0.66 wounds.
Summary
Scenario 1:
A Guardsman fires a Krak Missile at a squad of Space Marines. On average, he will cause 0.41 wounds.
Scenario 2:
A Guardsman fires a Frag Missile at a squad of Space Marines in 'blob' formation. On a direct hit (39% chance), he will cause on average 0.16 wounds. With the best possible scatter result, he will cause on average 0.66 wounds. With the worst possible scatter result, he will cause 0 wounds.
Conclusion
Unless the squad you fire at is tightly packed together (less than 1 inch apart), it is almost always statistically better to use a Krak Missile.
This or this might also be useful.
[Edit: Doh! I just realised you might be talking about Grenade Launchers, not Missile Launchers. Ah well, I'm not going to go back and work it all out exactly again. But the same principles apply.]
Last edited by Ravendove; June 16th, 2010 at 17:28.
thanks, i meant a GL but thanks for the missile launcher help anyway, it'll help with my marines many thanks for the time, brain-power and effort you have put into it for me
I won't look that much at the marker as scatter weapon but more as a weapon that can hit or miss, with a chance of 1/3. So if you can get enough models under the marker you definitely must use frag
a krak grenade will have a chance of: (1/2)x(5/6)x(1/3)=5/36 for killing marines
a single frag shot has a chance of: (1/3)x(1/3)x(1/3)= 1/27 for killing marines
if you can get enough models under the marker to kill more than a krak round would, you must choose frag
(5/36)/(1/27)=11/4=3,75 models
if you can get this many models under the marker you'll fire frag
this math doesn't take into account that you can still hit something when it scatters or that the scatter distance is reduced
I hope this is understandable, since my English isn't that good
yes, perfectly understandable, so frag grenades are better as long as i can hit them? That makes sense, thanks
not really my point.
If you can get 4 marines under the marker before you roll to scatter, the frag grenade is better than the krak grenade. Even without reduced scatter or scattering on other models
so if theyre not closely packed don't bother?
Actually, if you're able to get a even a single hit with a Frag Grenade, it will statistically always be better due to not needing to roll to hit.
Krak will need to Hit on 4+, Wound on 2+, followed by 3+ Save.
Frag will only need Wound on 5+, followed by 3+ Save.
After doing the mathhammer:
1 Krak Grenade @ BS3 = 0.13 wounds against a Space Marine
1 Frag Grenade w/ 1 under blast = 0.16 wounds
1 Frag Grenade w/ 2 under blast = 0.22 wounds
1 Frag Grenade w/ 3 under blast = 0.33 wounds
1 Frag Grenade w/ 4 under blast = 0.44 wounds
So what you need to take into account when you fire, is a) the average scatter distance based on BS (for BS3, it's 4.3") and then b) if I scatter an average distance, will I still be able to hit at least one model? If the answer is yes, use the Frag Grenade.
Ravendove summed it up nicely.
Now against a spread out enemy you should get about 1 hit, the marker could scatter off of the unit, or between models hitting 2+ fairly easily. So an average of about 1 is fair I beleive.
So as Raven said, about 0.16-0.17 kills with frag grenades, or 0.13 with krak grenades.
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