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Hey guys, little help here....
If Al'Rahem is taken, the whole platoon must outflank, and is, per the normal rules for platoons, rolled for collectively. This is fine.
Now what if we stick a couple of the infantry squads in Valks/Vendettas, I would assume that the Valk/Vendetta comes in with the platoon, as the squads HAVE to outflank and are rolled for with the rest of their platoon. This is questionable.
Now consider what happens if those Valks are squadroned, and another unit entirely (the HQ for the army, or the 2nd troops choice!) are in the other vehicles?
Surely, as part of said mixed squadron are part of a platoon that has to outflank and is rolled for collectively, then they must all come in when the platoon comes in. Or would this cancel out and mean that the army could only come in when all reserve rolls were successful? With an astropath, it'd be pretty surefire by turn 3, but not great I guess.
Apologies if this has cropped up before/I'm talking crap, it just dawned on me!
No... They can in chimeras.
I know they can in Chimera's, but why can't they do it in Valkyries? Valks and Vendettas can outflank anyway remember. I'm not convinced there's a decent ruling as to why this can't be done.
They aren't a part of the platoon... that's a decent ruling. It's not an upgrade, so you put the squad into it... after you buy it.
Normally I'd agree with you on that one, but Veteran squads and whatnot aren't part of a Valkyrie unit, yet can outflank inside one. That's a bit of a double-standard don't you think?
You put the unit inside of the non-dedicated transport. This is their pocket universe. They go along for the ride. The Vendetta or valkyrie rolls out outflank. In essence (and grossly simplified for explination), the world the Veterans occupy outflanks. There is no contradictory rule here, Veterans were deployed in a valid spot, inside a transport. The transport outflanks, this is stated in the BRB. If it were not allowed by the BRB, drop pods would not work. Hell, ANY unit held in reserve in their transport wouldn't.
Al Rahem's special rule states that the PLATOON must outflank and come in together at the same time. The Vendetta is not part of the platoon, neither is it a dedicated transport, so the special rule is not conferred to it. A Chimera, bought inside the platoon, is "part of the platoon". If you put an infantry squad from the platoon inside a vendetta, you're breaking the platoons rule, It's not guaranteed to outflank at the same time.
Remember: 40k tells you what you can do, Al'Rahem's special ability does not say you can do this, therefore, you cant. BRB supports it, as does the rule. There's no confusion.
@Age The issue isn't whether or not they can outflank but whether or not they are considered to still be a part of the platoon for purposes of their reserve rolls. Passengers don't matter when outflanking, hence why vets can outflank even though they don't have the infiltrate rule.
Al'Rahem's rule says the whole platoon must outflank. It doesn't say you can't put them into transports. I agree with cKerensky that it's not in the spirit of the rules but RAW doesn't seem to forbid it either. So long as they are in an outflanking vendetta they are still outflanking so still satisfy the special condition.
Either way though, the Vendetta isn't a dedicated transport, so isn't absorbed into the platoon so you roll for it to come in separately.
Actually... I looked it up and there is actually a fair bit of ambiguity. It only says that you need to roll for transport vehicles and their cargo together. It doesn't say whether the transport or the squad it contains takes priority with regards to grouping. Dedicated transports don't really help here. They don't "merge" with the squad that bought them. They just fall under the "roll for transport + cargo together" clause.
F.E. I think if you deployed them in reserve as empty they wouldn't be rolled for together with their "owners".
Having said all that I think if they FAQ'd it they would defiantly come down on the side of preserving the transports rather than the cargo's grouping.
The reason for this is to prevent a squadron from being split up due to one of the vendettas having cargo that arrives on a different turn to the rest of the squadron. Having a platoon broken up isn't a problem because all the units are independant but splitting up a squadron would give issues because they have coherency rules.
Last edited by Korona; July 3rd, 2010 at 21:15. Reason: weird RAW
The rule has to specifically allow something for someone to be able to do it. Sometimes I can lean either way, but I've gotta be honest, I wouldn't be cool with my opponent doing this.
Well the whole V/V outflanking/deepstriking with units inside is a(nother) grey area of 40k rules. It is generally accepted that veterans can be placed in a V/V before the game starts and arrive with it by outflanking - there isn't any rules that specifically says you can do this however.
If we work under this assumption (vets can deploy in outflanking V/V's), then for things to make sense the Veterans aren't said to be outflanking (they aren't allowed to outflank). Thus If you wanted to put a part of Al'Rahems platoon in a V/V then said part wouldn't be outflanking, conflicting with his rules.
I see nothing in the rules however that prevents you from doing the same thing with regular platoons (not led by Al'Rahem), you won't get to outflank with the footslogging part, but your entire army would arrive at the same time from reserves. One minimum platoon split in three different V/V squadrons would indeed make you have only one reserve roll for all three squadrons and all embarked units.
It's GWs fault for giving us non-dedicated transporters with the ability to outflank, on top of this they felt the need for them to be able to be fielded in squadrons..? Hmhmm..
@ cKerensky, where does it say a dedicated transport merges with the unit that bought it? The main rule book just says they have restrictions on how they deploy and that cargo and transports are rolled for at the same time. There's nothing about merging. DCs don't have the same force org slot as their cargo they just don't take one up like certain HQ options.
Check out the Dedicated Transports section of the IG book. It says "These vehicles do not use up any force org chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units." I take that to mean no merging.
Last edited by Korona; July 4th, 2010 at 21:01.