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I am very new to Warhammer 40k and tactics and the like but I have been reading a lot. I've read a lot of people going Rhino/Tactical Squad as oppose to "old" more dominant RAS armies.
For example with my list below would it be viable to just remove the Rhino/Tact and replace with RAS? I could reserve them and just deepstrike on t2 and with Descent of Angels wouldn't that be a better option?
Excuse me if I'm missing something but that just seems like that would be better for getting into assault range.
Death Co. Squad (5)
Sgt: Power Fist
Sanguinary Priest 1 w/jump
I say it is not better and here is why. When you deepstrike you run risks of a mis-hap. Not to mention the fact that if you jump too close to your opponent's forces, he will charge you, negating the benefits of charging, or barring that he will try to annihilate you with deadly fire. Another reason why the rhino is good is it allows you to move faster than the jump pack (up to 18 inches). Keep in mind that if the rhino moves, the squad inside it can not assault if they disembark in the same turn. So you simply disembark the next turn to assault. But you can not assault the turn you deep strike anyway, (unless you are Vanguard Vets), so that factor balances out in my mind. The other advantage of the rhino is the protection offered from all sorts of shooting AND from psychic powers like the Doom of Malantai and many others.
I used to run ALL jump packs on my assault squads, but now I have one in a rhino and one or two with jump packs. I like to have a mix.
Last edited by 4theEmperor!; August 3rd, 2010 at 19:46. Reason: clarification and punctuation
Once a Marine, always a Marine.
Why do so many people suggest going RAS then and deepstriking? I was thinking the same thing as what you stated that when you deep strike you cant even assault anyways and then next turn they assault you...
I dont get it >_<
Sorry for the dumb question, but what does RAS stand for?
The general idea is that for marines a rhino is the best option for mobility as it gels with SM strengths moreso than jump packs simply because units that can take rhinos are more versatile than those that only go for jump packs (even if they have the option to swap them out).
Sternguard versus vanguard makes a good point of references - unless you go for a true assault armny sternguard in a rhino play to marine strengths more than vanguard.
Deep striking brings in its own risks and outside of a couple ways generally seperates your battle line which is a major, major issue for new players - ironically most other forces can (and generally do) function with a fluid frontline while marines needs to remain cohesive lest their lack immediate punch be their undoing.
Assault squads are always an excellent addition to a marine force, but going pure jump pack and sacrificing rhinos leads to some very funky matchups and isn't the best way to build a list that is balanced as far as force composition goes.
Last edited by The_Outsider; August 4th, 2010 at 09:25.
The problem inherent with mix and matching is that most armies are geared to deal with all comers- that is, they will have sufficient firepower or assault capacity to deal with a small number of rhinos and a small number of jump packs. Leaning your force heavily one way or the other overloads the amount of either type of unit that they can deal with. For example a fully rhino list will ensure that several rhinos get close against most all comers armies, whereas a full jump pack list will ensure that several assault squads get into assault range.
Blood Angels have advantages for both types of armies. The Fast Rhinos and the ability to take 2 x special weapon RAS in them at a discount is extremely nice. On the other hand, BA have access to the awesome Sanguinary Priests, which do a lot to cover the role of a Rhino - which in my mind is to protect against small arms fire. Combining the two seems inefficient to me, but that is just my opinion. I would however, warn against deep striking.
I had 7 deepstriking units (6 with DoA) in my last battle. Turn two, only two units arrive and both scattered several inches. Turn 3, 3 more units arrive, one suffered a delayed misshap. Turn 4 the remaining units all arrive but again, one suffered a delayed misshap. Argueably the two misshaps were avoidable in that I relied to heavily on the re-roll from DoA, but the rest of the army arriving piecemeal was simply terrible and easily cost me the game. In addition to the obvious 2 units vs. the opponents entire army problem, not being able to coordinate those sanguinary priests properly on the deepstrike really hampers the survivability of your marines. Anyways, the lesson to be learnt from this is, don't rely too heavily on DoA as it can absolutely wreck you if you get poor rolls. Blood Angels do DSing well, but that doesn't make it the best choice for a Jump Pack based army. Bouncing across the tabletop with loads of FNP Marines is still a great way to get where you want to be against many armies.
And now my bitter hands cradle broken glassOf what was everything... - Black by Pearl Jam
assault marines all the way! but who said take jump packs? the reason to take jump packs is flexibility and that a single krak will take out a rhino then you are left in the midle of nowhere. And a rhino is a relatively easy kill point. in my last game in a tourney we were looosing majorly in kill points so i decided just to kill rhinos and managed to get us back enough to win. However they are fairly immune to low str weapons but anything decent will pop it. deepstriking assault marines can be hit or miss. its probably better to bring them on from the table edge, unless you need to melta something and our desent of angels does make them fairly reliable at deepstriking.
Of course the remove jump ppacks for a discount on a veichle is pretty darn good. best value for money at 5 man, and at that size they can still take a special weapon unlike tacticals. of ourse if you have tacticals then they would be better not in a rhino and instead should be sitting in an objective providing support, of course their rhino couuld be handy for mephy to ride in or provide cover...
Hovever that all compleately depends on the rest of your list. i play hard in in the face, meaning i have few models and loose them quick. so you have to look at how you want to play.
Thanks guys! Really appreciate all the help! I'll probably bounce my 10 man RAS across the table behind my Rhinos and stuff
I never thought of removing the jump packs from my Assault Squad...So as said below that 5 man RAS squads are best in Rhinos? I'm assuming you remove Assault Squad jump packs instead of just using straight Tactical Marines so you get the discount bonus on the Rhino + Special Weapon?
Here's my list for those that asked:
Sgt: Power Fist
Sanguinary Priest 1 w/jump
Death Co. Squad
Sgt: Power Fist
1 noobie questions if you guys don't mind:
I know you guys keep saying assault them from their side of the table. Are you talking about putting things in reserve then using the "outflank" rule? Or is it something else?
thats one way of it though only scouts and baals can do that in our dex as far as im aware. it can also be taken to go round then behind using speed etc as our advantages. not really a great way to play ba, more wolves and nids way to play, and some marine builds too.
as for the 5 man ras squad, the are just as well off with a razorback for all the points difference as the size of the squad aint a big problem. also twinlinked heavy flamers are fun(easy to make using the razor back lascannons and the heavy flamers off the baal too)May as well as the thing is probably going to be going straight for the enemy so youll want it to be able to support the squad if it survives to reach the other side of the board. unless you are making it ras in razors only as the could do with some anti tank weapons being strapped on too.
Seems to me you just don't understand what DoA actually does. For one, DoA allows you to re roll the dice to see if the unit arrives from reserve, not the scatter roll. This means you should have got your reserves closer together, as the DoA re-roll lets more squads get in on the same turn, it does not however let you re-roll where your scatter went, but with only scattering 1D6" you really should very very very rarely be dealing with mishaps unless your being careless with your placement.I had 7 deepstriking units (6 with DoA) in my last battle. Turn two, only two units arrive and both scattered several inches. Turn 3, 3 more units arrive, one suffered a delayed misshap. Turn 4 the remaining units all arrive but again, one suffered a delayed misshap. Argueably the two misshaps were avoidable in that I relied to heavily on the re-roll from DoA, but the rest of the army arriving piecemeal was simply terrible and easily cost me the game. In addition to the obvious 2 units vs. the opponents entire army problem, not being able to coordinate those sanguinary priests properly on the deepstrike really hampers the survivability of your marines. Anyways, the lesson to be learnt from this is, don't rely too heavily on DoA as it can absolutely wreck you if you get poor rolls. Blood Angels do DSing well, but that doesn't make it the best choice for a Jump Pack based army. Bouncing across the tabletop with loads of FNP Marines is still a great way to get where you want to be against many armies.
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