Purchasing/Tactical Advice for a New Marine Player - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Member Commissar_Dixon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mississippi, USA
    Posts
    84
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    1 (x1)

    Purchasing/Tactical Advice for a New Marine Player

    So, after a long tenure with the Imperial Guard I thought I'd visit our friends in Power Armour. So, I split the Assault on Black Reach with a friend, and bought another Tac Squad and Rhino. With a fair amount of Wargearing, this is a 1000 point force. I'm looking to expand up this force but have a few questions.
    1. I'm considering the Space Marine Battleforce from GW. This gives me some Assault Marines, more "Tac" Marines and a few Scouts that I'll equip with Sniper Rifles (if you can, I dunno how come...). Is this a good idea? I'm thinking a mobile shooty force; Rhino's drive up and dump Tac Squads in places, Devestators in the back, etc.
    2. In playing a few games against my friends, it seems like those 5 Terminators with Power Fists and Storm Bolters are a 200 point waste. Sure they've got 2+ armour and a 5+ invul but only 1 Wound. They die way too easy to mass fire/mass assault. Can I kit them out better? Trade them for some more Assault Marines? Also, I know that TH/SS is a "good" combo, but these are the Assault on Black Reach guys. I can't give them that.

    Thanks in advance for help!

    112th Cadian Rifles - Since January 2009
    2/3/3
    MY Record - Overall 4/5/5

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Toy Soldier Aficionado Wolf Guard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    930
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    89 (x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar_Dixon View Post
    1. I'm considering the Space Marine Battleforce from GW. This gives me some Assault Marines, more "Tac" Marines and a few Scouts that I'll equip with Sniper Rifles (if you can, I dunno how come...). Is this a good idea? I'm thinking a mobile shooty force; Rhino's drive up and dump Tac Squads in places, Devestators in the back, etc.
    Most Marine Armies I have seen use this same tactic. Except, instead of Devastators (Which are way overpriced, this a general consensus in the Marine community.) I might suggest instead using Vindicators or Predators. This will take the enemies Anti-armor weaponry off of your Rhino Transports (Which want to get close to the enemy)
    Scouts with Sniper Rifles arn't bad, but they arn't spectacular. You will see that they will perform better against certain units (Monsterous Creatures) and perform poorly against others (Space Marines). If you are going to use them, equip them with Camo Cloaks. It is well worth the points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar_Dixon View Post
    2. In playing a few games against my friends, it seems like those 5 Terminators with Power Fists and Storm Bolters are a 200 point waste. Sure they've got 2+ armour and a 5+ invul but only 1 Wound. They die way too easy to mass fire/mass assault. Can I kit them out better? Trade them for some more Assault Marines? Also, I know that TH/SS is a "good" combo, but these are the Assault on Black Reach guys. I can't give them that.
    Shooty Terminators are just plain not as good as their assualty counterparts. In my humble oponion, the only way to equip a Terminator squad is with 3 TH/SS and 2 LC. It will be quite easy to convert these Terminators. Just go on ebay, Terminator box sets, and even bits, are very ubiquitous. Just get another box of Assualt Terminators, and you will have enough arms to give 5 of them TH/SS and 5 of them LC.
    The Wolf time is upon us!
    Rep for the Rep God! Positive for the Positive Throne!
    Armies: Space Wolves, Imperial Guard, Emperors Children, Necrons, Eldar

  4. #3
    Son of LO praxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    South Wales
    Age
    53
    Posts
    3,220
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    523 (x8)

    The space marine battleforce is excellent value for money compared to buying the kits individually. I got a couple and can recommend them. The scouts, however, come with the option of CC weapons or bolters plus one heavy weapon, a heavy bolter. Sniper scouts box comes with a missile launcher, but you get more sniper rifles than you need.

    Good luck with your marines.
    Jager bombs. Very efficient at wiping out friend or foe.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Sancraer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    658
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    81 (x2)

    Okay, lets break it down.

    Hqs
    Captain- Good statline, he is our hq that does damage (not really any in the guard codex). Never take him. He costs 100pts and doesn't even have a power weapon. He doesn't help the army in ways more than more killy and he can be instant-killed my a missile launcher. Only take one on a bike if your running a bike army.
    Chapter Master-Same as the captain but more points.
    Chaplain-Great if you have an assualt unit. His ability to re-roll wounds makes your terminator squad that muc better. Terminators don't really fit your mobile gunline army but they could. If you want to keep them your hq should be a chaplain in terminator armour. Keep his normal wepean. Combi-weapons are good point fillers.
    Librarian- Mainly taken for the pyschic hood, but he has the same stats as a chaplain and gets a force weapona and powers. If you have no combat unit in your army he is the best at 100pts. Hwever, he has no invulnerable so easily perils of the warped or instant-killed. A terminator libraian solves this problem for a couple more points, and is also a good addition to the terminator squad (if you don't fancy a chaplain)
    Mast of the Forge on bike with conversion beamer if you like dreds.

    Troops
    Tactical Squad. One squad per 500pts is best but 3 squads is okay at 2000pts. These should have the following equipment: meltagun (AT), plasma cannon/missile launcher (TEQs/MEQs/light tanks, and they're really cheap), powerfist (get charged by a wraithlord, now you can fight back), naked rhino/razorback (except from razorback weapons all the upgrades are pointless on these). This means your squad is mobile and versatile (the two things your list should maximise on).
    Scouts- Unit of 5 with snipers and camo-cloaks if anything. Is good for holding home objective. Some people like telion, personally I think hes too many points.

    Elites
    Our best 3 are terminators/assualt terminators, sternugard and dreadnoughts.
    Terminators: Shooty ones are good as they can move, fire and assualt. They need a hq to make them good, but then they cost even more points.] These guys should have a cyclone missile launcher to improve shooting +bust a transport so they can charge/catch the occupants. Assualt cannon if you can't afford CML.
    Assualt terminators- Two words- Too slow. These guys have to trundle up the field with no shooting attack and they just get avoided. They have to be placed in a landraider to get anywhere and then a chaplain is needed to make them hit anything. Thats 550pts too many.
    Sternguard- Love these guys, their ammo gives them the versatiltiy they need, but to the enemy they just look like more tacticals. Take a look here for more detail (specifically my post):TotWternguard
    Dreadnoughts- Suicide dreds, multimelta heavy flamer. Venerables are good becuase of BS5 and they might survive. Ironclads are good for 2 heavy flamers and AV13 front armour. The other type are rifle dreds. Either two TL autocannons or one TL autocannon and one assualt cannon. These are good against transports and can trap a unit in combat. Venerable or ironclad if you have the points.

    Fast Attack
    Bike squad/assualt marines mediocre. Only take for fun.
    Vanguard/landspeeder storm- too many points, too easy to kill.

    Now the good bit:
    Landspeeders- Red Archer's had more experience with these than me (I've only started to use them since March). Heres his tactica on them: Very good tactica (Tactica: Landspeeders)
    Attack Bikes: Now many people say these are too easy to kill, but a squad of three guarantees damage on a vehicle. ALways upgrade to multimeltas, a heavy bolter is pointless. This squad is used similar to a multimelta/heavy flamer landspeeder; dart in, kill something expensive, die. Always try and take at least two in a squad and use lots of cover to avoid missile launchers. Sometimes I place these in reserve and use them to grab objectives. Very cheap and very effective at what they do.

    Heavy Support
    This is the most evil part of the codex cos everything looks pretty good.
    Devestators: their weapons are too many points, check the Blood Angel codex if you don't bvelive me. The BA devs are exactly the same but their weapons are cheaper. Too easy to kill, can be fun though. If you will take them a squad of 4 missile launchers is the best option, to kill transports + MEQs. No point taking this squad when tacticals give you cheaper heavy weapons and score.
    Predator: Some people like them, i don't. The las-pred is too many points. The dakka pred (autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons) is awesome against guard, eldar and nid swarm. Thats about it. Not enough versatility for me.
    Landraider- Its a transport, not nearly enough guns for 250pts. Only run it as a DDTT for you terminators in which case its not heavy support. The crusader with a multimelta is a good variant as it can move and fire lots of weapons (bolters are defensive) and use multi-melta to pop vehicles. Lascannon one is alright against some armies, still worth taking the multimelta. Redeemer is like the banewolf, has to get to close to hurt things, if you take it take the multimelta.
    Thunderfire cannons/whirlwinds; fairly easy to kill and very sbjective (only good against the same races as dakka preds).

    Which leaves us with the vindicator.
    S10 Ordnance. You can move 6 and fire. This is our leman russ demolisher but ours is cheaper! This has mobility (move and shoot), and versatiltiy (its S10 ordnane, it kills anything even monoliths). Watch out for units in cover and mobile S6 (like necron destroyers) hitting your rear and side armour. Unfortunately its quite easy to shut down its gun so remember to pop smoke if you get stunned. Take it naked to keep points down (or if you must buy seige sheild to stop looking rubbish). Take at least two or none, otherwise its too much of a target.

    Well thats a codex summary.

    Now you said you wanted a mobile shooty force. I run the same list and so I'll use it as an example.

    Librarian

    Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Power Fist
    -Rhino
    Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Power Fist
    -Rhino
    Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Power Fist
    -Razorback

    Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon + Assualt Cannon
    Dreadnought w/ TL Autocannon + Assualt Cannon
    5 Sternguard w/ 3 Combi-meltas, Combi-Flamer, Heavy Flamer
    -Razorback

    2 Landspeeders w/ Typhoon Missile Launchers
    2 Attack Bikes w/ Multimeltas
    2 Attack Bikes w/ Multimeltas

    Vindicator
    Vindicator
    Vindicator

    The tacticals form a solid core. I then added the dreadnoughts to deal with transports and the attack bikes to deal with AV14. I then added my signature 3 vindicators (my favourite unit, although not the best in the codex, just the best HS). I then wanted a bit more anti-transport so landspeeders came in. I then had no combat units so chose librarian over chaplain. With the points left I added a supporting sternguard squad for the librarian to travel with.

    The 2 other ways to make a list are:
    1). Choose a hq, build the army around him (works well for special characters, and master of the forge)
    2). Choose your favourite unit/weapon. SPAM IT!!! Mine is vindicators. Then whatever the unit lacks fill in (vindicators lack ultra-mobiltiy and scoring ability). Choose a suitable hq (if you like multimelta landspeeders take Vulkan etc.). Like marines on bikes, take a bike army.

    Looking at this post I should just write a tactica. Would be much easier.

    Anyway, using my advice, proxy a list. Remember my advice is to make a competitive list, so if feel free to ignore any of it you want (at your own peril, nah only joking). Being a 5th ed codex, like guard we have many lists (mech, bikes and drop are the three main categories), so do what you like.

    Have a go proxying stuff first and if you like it then use it.

    Good luck and welcome to the world where the answer to everything isn't: SEND MORE MEN AT IT!!!!! although sometimes it still helps.

  6. #5
    Member Commissar_Dixon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mississippi, USA
    Posts
    84
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    1 (x1)

    Wow. Thanks so much for the advice! I'd never really thought about running a Chaplin in Terminator Armour with the Terminators... his re-roll increases the survivability of the unit DRAMATICALLY. I'm going to do some more thinking/writing/proxying. I'll let you know how it turns out! Oh, and Sancraer? Rep to you good sir!!
    112th Cadian Rifles - Since January 2009
    2/3/3
    MY Record - Overall 4/5/5

  7. #6
    Senior Member Papa_Wheely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Age
    29
    Posts
    401
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    33 (x1)

    Sancraer, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with a lot of what you say. However, that's the beauty of this game: there are so many different ways to use units (especially in conjunction) that two people can have wildly different opinions and yet still both be right. Anyways, here are my own opinions.

    HQ:
    I largely agree with you on this category, but don't forget the named characters or the Master of the Forge. The Characters bring a whole new look to Captains and Chapter Masters because of their special rules. For example, I play Salamanders, and so routinely bring Vulkan (God I love twin-linked flamers). The Master of the Forge is also really nice to take because, unless I am very much mistaken, he can repair a vehicle while embarked in it. But the main reason that I take him (in 2000 points I take both Vulkan and MotF) is so I can take 4 Dreadnoughts as well as my Assault Terminators.

    Elites:
    My main bone of contention is with your review of terminators and of Dreadnoughts. Plasma Cannon Dreads (which you don't mention) are, I think, the best thing since sliced bread (they will wreck a Marine players day) and my TL Las-Cannon dreads are my primary source of Anti-Armor. And have done an exemplary job. Dreads are a versatile unit, and they are the main reason I started Marines. That being said, I feel that venerable Dreads are way over-costed and thus, don't use them anymore.
    Assault Termies do need a Land Raider, I will concede you that. However, that doesn't make them bad. Perhaps impractical at low point levels, but once you get to about 2000 points, they can be fantastic. The 3++ invuln on my TH/SS termies have saved my behind so many times that it's border-line ridiculous. The only caveat is that they do well against enemy elite formations; send them in against a mob of Boyz and they won't even get a chance to swing. Mega-Armored Nobz, however, will get wrecked in nothing flat.
    As for Shooting Termies, it's the Heavy Weapons that make them awesome. If you decide you like Librarians, try this set-up. Give the Librarian terminator armor, Gate of Infinity, and whatever other options float your boat. Then take a full unit of Terminators with 2 Assault Cannons or Cyclone Missile Launchers, attach the Librarian, and have fun teleporting for side and rear armor shots, contesting objectives, what ever suites you. To keep from mis-happening you may want to combat squad them, however. (As an aside: Sancraer, when you refer to the affordability of CML and Assault cannons, are you talking in terms of dollars or in points? Because they are the same number of points...)

    Troops: I feel that Tactical Squads are superior to scouts, but then I only have Sniper Scouts and I mainly play Marines, which is the most difficult pairing for Snipers, so take that with a grain of salt. For Tacticals, I agree with the heavy weapon selection, Plasma Cannon or Missile, but I think any of the special weapons can be very effective, it just depends on what you need it to do. Give them a try and see what suites your fancy.

    Fast Attack:
    I don't actually have any fast attack, nor have I played against them much, so I can't speak on this category

    Heavy:
    I agree that Devastators are over-costed, that the only reason to take a Land Raider is to move units around the field, that the Vindicator is an awesome tank and that Preds are over rated, (mainly because they can't move and shoot effectively. But somehow the Blood Angels can!) The Thunderfire and the Whirlwind, however, can be very useful, especially against Horde armies. Having repeatedly gotten stomped by a firend's Ork horde (damn that Kustom Force Field) I have been enviously looking at these units, both of whom can ignore cover, and the Thunderfire can slow them down. Pretty fantastic, in my opinion. Yes, they are fragile. So what? Do something to defend them. Help the Thunderfire by deploying a combat squad in front of it (or better yet, in a ruin where the Techmarine can use his Bolster Defenses rule). Put the Whirlwind in hard cover or, better yet, out of Line of Sight.

    In my opinion, there are very few worthless units in the codex (with the notable exception of the Legion of the Damned). However, I don't think that the way to build an enjoyable list is to just take a really powerful unit and spam it to hell and gone. This is not to say that I have anything against spamming something (hence the 4 and soon to be 5 Dreadnoughts that I field), but it is not the only way to build a good list.

    Anyways Commissar_Dixon, I hope that this is helpful. Best of luck with your army!

  8. #7
    Senior Member Sancraer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    658
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    81 (x2)

    Funnily enough you actually agree with what I say a lot of the time.

    Hq
    I meant to mention MotF, but I forgot. Basic summary is: if you want to run 4-6 dreadnoughts you need this guy. However apart from that, he has no abilities conferred to the army (he can fix vehicles, which is only useful on vindicators, which will be dreadnoughts as your running a MotF), and the lack of invulnerable opens him up to missile launcher death. Many people give him conversion beamer and bike (the bike gives him relentless). Servitors can be added. However, the MotF is much like an Inquisitor Lord in the daemonhunters codex, hes alright and he opens up some options, but hes not as good as a grandmaster.
    Didn't mention special characters as they limit the force, however if you take a special character, build the force around their abilities. Avoid the high-pointed ultramarine ones (calgar, sicarius, tigurius) because they are not good out of apocalypse. Also, in a shooty mech list, you want to maximise on firepower so take cheap hqs.

    Elites
    PC dreads are interesting, yet whenever I use one I find myself wishing I had my TL autocannon so no scatter/missing. The other weapon is interesting on a PC dread because your two options are the TL las and the combat arm (to match the AP2 of the PC) but the lascannon is expensive points-wise and the arm doesn't match with the 36" range of the PC.

    Note: sorry misread the codex, thought assualt cannons were cheaper. In this case, I prefer the cyclone as you keep the stormbolter and get S8 Ap3 and frag missiles. However assualt cannon rending is awesome so its a coin-toss.

    Heavy Support
    Whirlwinds/thunderfires I said: Thunderfire cannons/whirlwinds; fairly easy to kill and very subjective (only good against the same races as dakka preds).

    which I still believe to be true. Against orks, (your example) these are very good because the orks have little shooting attacks to take them out, and low armour saves. However, against a mechanised list these start to lose their worth, although one whirlwind can stop objective campers. If you msut take one, take the whirlwind (thunderfire is more expensive and easier to kill).

    None of the units in the codex are, "worthless", its just some are more efficient than others (except vanguard, they're just awful). LotD have their moments.



    Papa Wheely, your dreds need the lascannons because fast attack has a lot of our AT (dreds have the rest, autocannons and assualt cannons for transports, expensive (pointwise) weapons for bigger things that you should be using melta/vindicators on).
    Landspeeders: 24" melta range (move 12, fire within 12) at 70pts.
    Or a typhoon:2 S8 shots, 48" range, after moving 12 (great fring lines, can get side armour sometimes)
    Attack bike w/ multimelta: cheapest fast melta, also surprisingly hard to kill as long as you stay away from S8 and melta.

    And all these units can move 24" on the last turn to contest objectives (game-changing).

    Well I hope that fills the holes in my summary, if you want more information on special characters feel free to ask and either the other members on LO or myself will happily answer.
    Last edited by Sancraer; August 26th, 2010 at 04:06.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Vulcan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Age
    28
    Posts
    802
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    47 (x2)

    Personally the Master of the Forge is great, I use him in my army all the time and have found that he is very good, I do not run him with conversion beamer instead i use the servo harness, 2 powerfist, flamer and twin linked plasma pistol, very good and effective.
    Normally he runs with shooty terminators to help them out.

    Land raiders are expensive but i really would not leave without my redeemer, this is the choosen ride of my assault terminators, its gets close burns a few things then they charge out and kill anything nearby, and while they dont neen the chaplin to be good he really works in that squad.

    I also run a 10 man squad of Legion of the Dammed which has been hit or miss but really good fun.

  10. #9
    LO Zealot Mr. Biscuits's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Age
    22
    Posts
    1,169
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    192 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa_Wheely View Post
    Elites:
    My main bone of contention is with your review of terminators and of Dreadnoughts. Plasma Cannon Dreads (which you don't mention) are, I think, the best thing since sliced bread (they will wreck a Marine players day) and my TL Las-Cannon dreads are my primary source of Anti-Armor. And have done an exemplary job. Dreads are a versatile unit, and they are the main reason I started Marines. That being said, I feel that venerable Dreads are way over-costed and thus, don't use them anymore.
    Plasma Cannon Dreadnaughts are in my opinion fairly unreliable. They have great devastating potential but they are simply too innacurate. More often than not you will fiond yourself wanting to move your Dreadnaught which means you will NOT be subtracting your BS of 4 from the shot. I will admit that i do take one in my army but that is simply because my 6 Dreadnaught army has issues with 2+ saves as most units with them have very good anti-tank capabilities in close combat. Against most opponents I find myself wishing I had an Assault Cannon instead.

    The Twin-Linked Lascannon Dreadnaught is in my opinion costed too high to compete with the Assault Cannon. Strength 6 may not appear to be much but with 4 shots and Rending it is very even with the Lascannon at busting armour.
    Twin Linked Lascannon
    AV 10 0.148 Glance 0.741 Penetrate
    AV 11 0.148 Glance 0.593 Penetrate
    AV 12 0.148 Glance 0.444 Penetrate
    AV 13 0.148 Glance 0.296 Penetrate
    AV 14 0.148 Glance 0.148 Penetrate

    And the Assault Cannon
    AV 10 0.444 Glance 0.889 Penetrate
    AV 11 0.444 Glance 0.444 Penetrate
    AV 12 0 Glance 0.444 Penetrate
    AV 13 0.148 Glance 0.296 Penetrate
    AV 14 0.148 Glance 0.148 Penetrate

    As you can see from these numbers the Twin Linked Lascannon and the Assault Cannon are virtually even against vehicles and even though the Lascannon has twice the range it costs 25 points more and lacks the versatility of the Assault Cannon.

    On the note of Venerable dreadnaughts being over priced, I agree with you 100%.
    Ask me about the Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White Bike!!!

  11. #10
    Senior Member Papa_Wheely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Age
    29
    Posts
    401
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputation
    33 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Biscuits View Post
    Plasma Cannon Dreadnaughts are in my opinion fairly unreliable. They have great devastating potential but they are simply too innacurate. More often than not you will fiond yourself wanting to move your Dreadnaught which means you will NOT be subtracting your BS of 4 from the shot.
    Can you point me to the rule which states this? Because, for the life of me, I can't find it. In fact, I think I found one which states the opposite. On page 72 of the Big Rule Book, in the section "Walkers Shooting", the first sentence reads "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." As stationary vehicles still subtract their ballistic skill from a blast shot I am lead to believe that, no matter if it moves, the Walker will still do so as well.

    As for the effectiveness of Assault Cannons vs. Las Cannons, I won't disagree with you that the two are about on par for tank busting, or that the Las-Cannon is somewhat over-costed. I use the Las-Cannon because A ) I love having the additional range, and B ) I got the dread second hand and that is the weapon that was already glued in place. And it has an awesome green stuff Drake Skin draped over that shoulder, it looks really good.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts