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Sorry if this is a newb question, I've only got 4 games under my belt.
How should you play tactical marines in rhinos?
I read that mobility is all the rage with tac marines (as opposed to devastators), but I don't understand why you'd want to move tac marines around when you could be shooting with them.
I understand that rhinos protect the marines, but it's not as if every marine could fire from the vehicle.
One of the main ideas of loading your dudes in a rhino is you can do both. A tac squad is completley usless if you can't get it where you need it, sloging your way across the board 6" at a time, getting shot up all the way realy reduces the squads effectivenes.I don't understand why you'd want to move tac marines around when you could be shooting with them.
A rhino allows you to move 12" at a time then jump out and shoot. Getting your squad into rapid fire range without taking half the game to get there and not having half your squad shot to hell on the way makes a big difference.
Another advantage is in objective holding, if your squad is sitting on an objective in a rhino, it's just that much harder for the enemy to get you off it.
If you're new and thinking of getting some rhinos, don't buy a rhino, buy a razor back instead. It's the same price, in the razor back box you get a rhino pluss the razor back conversion peices. Much better value for money.
You're right, using rhinos is not a hard and fast rule.
I run a footslogging marine army (Space Wolves) and I do very well. Never bought a GW vehicle in my life (except for a drop pod recently).
In one tournament, I got 1st for best general and 2nd for best overall. In another tournament, I got 2nd for best general and 1st for best overall. Those are the only 2 tournaments I've ever done.
Against any normal (ie with transports) MEQ army, it is usual for my footslogger MEQs to wipe the opponent off the board (I'll elaborate on this later).
Having said that, my list and play-style are very particular and unconventional. Most people will tell you that transports are the way to go. I'm not here to argue against that. I just thought I'd point out the viability of making your own army work using your own play-style, as long as you can make it work. The important thing is a good understanding of mechanics of the game (which really just comes with experience).
The explanation (of why I do so well vs other MEQs):
My footslogger Space Wolves hove lost a game to an MEQ army to date (it was my very first game after the newest SW codex came out) and it was Chaos Space Marines. Aside from that one exception, they haven't lost another game. They do especially well in games against other marine armies (that includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Codex Marines, Black Templars, Chaos Space Marines), and often table the opponent altogether. No matter how the game begins (who goes first, who steals the initiative), or how fast the enemy rhinos move (12"), my army takes the initiative (tactically) and dictates the direction of the battle. I generally outnumber, out-combat, and outgun the enemy simply by virtue of them having spent points on vehicles, while I saved those points. My army starts the battle footslogging, and are deployed for that purpose (ie. entrenched in terrain, commanding firing lanes, spread out in case of templates, etc.) The enemy's infantry have none of that, being deployed in transports. I have a healthy number of missiles and even more meltaguns in my army. That means, right from turn one I'm popping transports. I choose which transports to shoot at, and when. When I kill transports, the now disembarked units are put on the back foot. They were not deployed for that - they are now sitting in the middle of the battlefield, which was probably not their plan. Additionally, my full army that is well entrenched is now facing a smaller army (due to the points spent on the opponent's rhinos) that has been put on the back foot, and it doesn't even matter who went first or stole the initiative.
In conclusion, try it out and see for yourself. Do what you think works - you don't necessarily have to subscribe to what "all the rage" is.
"Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!"
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Salamander project log
Thank you for the replies.
So, using the transport vehicle mechanics, you can move 12", disembark in a tight, huddled formation, then rapid fire at something within 12"? Wouldn't the fact that you disembarked (moved) prevent you from shooting with anything else than single shots? Apart from sitting on an objective in the two scenarios out of three that require it, are there other uses to the rhino/razorback than "disembark & shoot" or "camp"? I'm trying to understand the stated versatility of the vehicle.
Takeda, is your play style what some people call "gunline marines"? What happens when people outflank, drop pod or jetpack/skimmer up to your entrenched army within a turn or two? Aren't you "squeezed" in a pincer manoeuvre or something?
Last edited by Spikes; September 18th, 2010 at 15:28.
One other thing you can do with rhinos is move them on the last turn to contest objectives, taking advantage of their 12" move, or 18" move if you're blood angels. You can also elect to stay in the rhino. Then, the following turn (if you disembark before the rhino moves that turn), you can disembark, move, shoot and assault - and the rhino can also, separately, move normally after the marines disembark. You can also protect other things than the unit embarks, by having run (or jump pack, or bike) behind the rhino. I've seen pretty much any maneuver you can do with rhinos, and they're pretty useful for the player using them.
As for my army, the only time it is conceivably a "gunline" would be maybe if I'm facing tyranids or something. It does often look deceptively static, but once the game starts that changes. Otherwise, other than the long fangs, the entire army is moving every turn. There are 8 missiles in one list (up to 12 missiles in some lists) and some of those shots come from cyclone launchers which can move and shoot, and 13 meltaguns (including some combi-meltas). There are also 3 chainfists (up to 5 in some lists). That means, 8-12 missiles shooting each turn will generally kill off whichever enemy rhinos i want, and if they come closer, then they're now in melta and chainfist range.
Against drop pods and outflankers, I actually generally have the easiest time dealing with (far easier than an opponent that deploys everything facing me). Drop pods would come to right in front of my lines, maybe kill a few things, and then die the very next turn. Then, I'll deal with whatever else is in they're army, piecemeal. I'll often deploy so that everyone's just close enough to support each other, which is how that works. Outflankers have to roll for reserves, which again means that I'm dealing with whatever is on the board, followed by whatever else straggles in - not very much pincer move there. Jetpacks, I have no problem with, and skimmers I'll shoot like I do any other vehicle (if they turboboost, it also means they're not doing anything else that turn either).
Having said that, I myself make use of reserves. In my 1750 list, I have scouts that come in from potentially any table edge, thunderwolf cavalry that charge in potentially halfway across the board, and a drop pod that comes in turn 1 with 5 combi-meltas. The 5 combi meltas might kill a landraider turn 1 (or whatever else). The missiles can deal with the rest of the mech. Simply put, I'll normally turn any mech army (mech marines, at least) into a footslogging one that is both smaller than mine and was not setup for that kind of fight. Then, between the thunderwolves and scouts, they have a potential threat range that covers the whole board except a narrow strip somewhere between the opponent's edge and the centre of the board. Depending on who I'm facing and the situation in the game, I might move my entire army towards that strip (I'd be there by turn 2). If anything, this seems more to me like a pincer move.
Making effective use of drop pods, outflankers, jumppacks, bikes, etc. is notoriously difficult. Obviously they have uses, but most players simply cannot pull it off. What people often don't realize is that by spending the points on drop pods, the onus is now on you to make up those points you've already spent. Same with bikes and jumppacks - you have more movement, but the onus now on you to make use of it. If you fail in that regard, then (assuming you're facing me) you're now facing an army that is larger and didn't spend those points. Exact same thing goes for rhinos. When a player tries to use any kind of "pincer" maneuver, they have to time it right (which is in fact not always possible due to reserve and outflank rolls), otherwise risk losing their army in pieces. It is what happens almost every time. When you use any type of "maneuver," you're normally not trying to overwhelm the opponent (you've spent points on that maneuverability, ie drop pod, transport, jump pack, something that can outflank, etc. and so your army is probably not bigger than theirs), but to get local superiority on one part of the battle, eg maybe on one flank. Like I said, it is notoriously difficult.
Last edited by Takeda; September 18th, 2010 at 17:09.
I love mech because you can use it to dictate where footslogging armies move.
Especially orks and nids or other armies that may throw hordes at you. You can use the rhinos as roadblocks or block line of sight.
And honestly, the point cost of a rhino is barely over 2 marines. I really don't see the huge difference it makes between hoofing it or meching it other than a few more models when on foot. The only time its really a problem for me is in kill point games where sometimes the rules are interpreted to hurt mech lists, which is another thing to think about...
Also Takeda is running wolves which I think are better at footslogging than most marines. He also knows how to support them properly even mentioning that he himself, the great advocate of footslogging, does sneak a drop pod in his lists, arguably a form of mech, for the meltas. A very good tactic.
Also, space wolves have counter-attack so they don't care if they get charged unlike most space marines so mech is still highly recomeneded.
Last edited by Guthbrand; September 19th, 2010 at 07:10. Reason: forgot space wolf counter attack
of course u could just use razorbacks, half a tactical sqaud goes into razor back with the assault weapon while the other sits back with the heavy and shoots.
Hello spikes, thanks for starting this thread - I've picked up loads of bits from it, although as usual you've got contradicting advice and all of it good. Just dont do what i did in my last game. Four full tactical squads with Rhinos remained stationary trying to shoot a Tyranid army to bits and ended up getting chewed in close combat. If you decide to take Rhinos make sure you use them. I could have embarked my tacticals and probably saved them, maybe winning the game or at least holding out for a draw. Good luck with whatever you decide to go for.
Jager bombs. Very efficient at wiping out friend or foe.
For now I have two rhinos, and we play 1k games. I will eventually have other dreads than the multimelta/ccw dreads from AoBR; and a vindicator.
I agree that providing multiple vehicle targets means that some have more chance of survival than others, but my enemy could keep his precious ammo to use against the important (deadly) vehicles and ignore the rhino.
In my mind, I find it difficult to realize the potential of a rhino full of marines that moved 12", compared to a dreadnought that has a nice shot against a vehicle and whatnot. Obviously, I play against marines myself, so having a huge amount of shooting against hordes is not my main concern (for now).
In objective games, obviously having a rhino bring my marines safely to the objective is a concern. Last game I played, it was the "each has his own base" scenario with regular deployment: my rhino brought my CC combat squad (4 tac marines and a sergeant with energy sword; one of the tac marines had a flamer). As I came out of the rhino I shot at the enemy inside the building, placed a nice flamer template parallel to their windows, and toasted a couple. He decided to shoot at me next turn, which means I could shoot&charge on my own turn after that and contest his objective. (I had a combat squad of scouts with shotguns and CCW that outflanked on that side at the same time as my rhino arrived!)